It is so refreshing to see an honest response.
When someone is engaging in self-defense, they should be given a lot of leeway on the means used and not engage in 20/20 because we have the benefit of knowing how it turned out but the person defending himself at that moment didn’t. More generally, if people assault someone, that person has no moral (and I believe, legal) obligation to make it a fair fight.
But that is for self-defense. At some point, the situation went from self-defense to private revenge. That’s when he crossed the line.
The passerbies can’t tell if the women are still a threat but the colleague of Metal Man tries to talk him out of it and take his weapon away and he’s in a position to tell if they’re a threat. He apparently could see that they were no longer a threat.
He already did a dime for murder. Not sure why it wasn’t more than that (maybe he was a juvenile?). Anyway, he clearly isn’t right in the head. A person with that kind of record had no business working with customers on a daily basis in the first place. Unloading boxes in a warehouse, maybe. Something low-stress and not customer-facing.
Gender matters, in this case. Yes we’d be applauding a woman who beat the fuck out of 2 men like that, because men are physically stronger and far more capable of seriously injuring somebody in hand-to-hand combat (not to mention 2 of them at once). But if two guys had actually done that to a female cashier, the other dudes working behind the counter (and customers) would have started shouting IMMEDIATELY and physically protected her. Because women are not as strong or threatening as men.
No matter how much anybody wishes the situations could be equatable with the genders reversed, they cannot. A woman taking down 2 unarmed men with a club is a fucking difficult accomplishment. A man taking down 2 unarmed women with a club is pretty easy.
One had a broken arm and a skull fracture, and the other one had a deep gash. Now, you might make the valid point that you don’t necessarily bleed just because you have a broken arm and a skull fracture. I will grant you that. But I will venture that a person with a broken arm and a skull fracture is not doing any kind of significant fighting back anymore.
The WHOLE fight, from slap to final hit, lasted something like 15 seconds (maybe 20 - it’s a bit hard to tell). 15 freaking seconds. Tell me just how much self-control you’ve got that you would have stopped at 12 seconds and not 15.
I watched the video. The guy might be excused if he had smacked them once or twice and then walked away. Continuing to do so after he was told to stop multiple times indicates someone with serious anger management problems. That does not strike me as a normal human response. All of them ought to be charged with criminal activity in a court of law.
Oh yes. And the guy with the club took something like 5 seconds out of the 15-second fight, with adrenaline flowing, to examine the two attackers and determine that they were no threat to him anymore. You think you would have done better?
It’s very hard to tell from the video, but it looks the weapon in question might be a deepfryer “grate hook” or “fisher” or clean-out-rod". Not even sure what the real terminology is for that particular piece of equipment, but basically it is part of the cleaning and filtering machine for the deep fryers, and is basically a piece of stainless steel round stock anywhere from a 1/4 to a 1/2 inch in diameter, I would guess, with one end bent into a hook to manipulate hot fryer grates and unclog the fryer drain. So, it’s not exactly a metal pipe, more like a very sturdy metal whip, and you can tell it’s relative light weight and aerodynamics, from the velocity he was able to achieve swinging it.
It’s not the number of seconds that counts, it’s how much of a threat the two women were.
As for the ability to stop oneself, a few times through the video, the guy stops hitting them and then resumes hitting them. He is able to control himself, he just really wants to hurt them. Being really angry isn’t the same as being unable to stop oneself.
I remember doign better when I was 6 years old. Two guys cornered me and it was obvious they were going to attack me. I attacked the older one and after several punches (not metal rod blows) when he was on the ground, it was obvious he wasn’t a threat anymore. So I stopped hitting him.
The other guy stepped aside. I didn’t attack him.
The time elapsed definitely counts. The “heat of the moment” doesn’t last minutes. But it certainly does last a few seconds. At least.
Yeah OK, 1. A very easy way to tell if someone is no longer a threat is if they are lying on the floor not moving and you are standing over them with a weapon. If you are still concerned about whether the skull-fractured person is going to rise up and destroy you, ninja-style, you could always, I don’t know, move a couple of feet away at that point.
- Stopping for a few seconds, laying another beat-down, stopping for a few more seconds, administering more beat-down, etc., does not really seem like “acting in a blind unstoppable rage”.
If you want to make the case that this guy exercised unbelievably poor judgment in not stopping before fracturing the skull of one of his victims, then I will readily agree with that. I don’t think that “but he needed to really make sure they weren’t a threat anymore!!” is a valid excuse. What constitutes a threat? Twitching? Moving your arm? Maybe he should have just beaten her until she wasn’t breathing anymore to be completely sure?
She could have come back as a zombie.
Lots of assumptions there, like “not moving”. It’s as if you were behind that counter watching. Otherwise it is hard to imagine where you’re getting that information from.
I guess you also think that you would be able to identify the precise extent of someone’s injuries in about 3 seconds during an adrenaline rush in the middle of a fight. Have you thought of becoming a doctor?
I feel like some people like to take rather contrarian stances on issues like this because they feel like everyone else rushes to conclusions too quickly and they see themselves as “telling all the bleeding hearts on the online message board what the real world is really like”.
Well sometimes conclusions can be drawn quickly. Sometimes what is seen on tape doesn’t need any further context to be understood for what it is. Sometimes bad is just bad.
The moral of the story is simple.
Don’t slap people. You may get hurt.
Well, I happen to know from personal experience that the counters at McDonald’s are at about waist-height. Since you accurately and perceptively pointed out that the victim was not visible, that means she was either lying on the ground, crawling on the ground, or was doing some kind of kung-fu style crouch. Now, I’m not discounting the possibility that she was pulling some kind of kung fu back there, even with a fractured skull. I wasn’t back there, you see, so I can’t be entirely sure. But personally speaking, I don’t see a lying-down or even a crawling victim as much of a threat. What, was he afraid she was going to bite him to death? Head-butt him with her fractured skull?
Oooh.
Now see, I’d say the moral of the story is: when you can walk away after being slapped and not hurt by someone, keep on walking.
Actually, I would be worried if 2 crazies came after me behind the counter in any fast food joint other than a sub shop. Do you realize how dangerous it can actually be? Would you like one of them to whip a fryolator basket full of product dripping with seriously hot oil at your head? Trip you into the fryolator? Trip you onto the flattop?
They are actually lucky he didn’t whip a basket full of oil and product at them instead of the clean out rod.
And I would like to see how controlled you are with a body full of adrenaline in full on fight or flight mode as several others have already pointed out.:dubious:
[John Bunnell] He’ll have plenty of time to swing pipe… in jail! [/JB]