And they don’t actually care about the welfare of children, and only care about fighting abortion as a means of harming women. So pointing out that such measures will reduce abortion and save children’s lives and health avails you nothing.
I wonder if the so called Pro=Life marchers, sign carriers etc. stir up the few fanatic’s (like the Taliban, and Al Quida) to the point that they believe they are doing a good For God?
I would think any one who is truly Pro-Life (not just Pro Birth) would spend the time and energy,and money traveling around the country, would try to find away to help people be more responsible for their actions, by starting to teach human sexuality from the time one is little, to help them think before they act, and to teach those who wish to have sex (Married or not) the cost to the child that could be concieved under the circumstance. Many religious people treat sex as something dirty and have a difficult time talking about it to their children and do not like it taught in school or by any other way. Children pick up things (even suggestions and think about what they see or hear. If they hear the right things at an early age and realize some things are out of place, perhaps they will understand the big responsibility that comes from an action. I think if Sarah Palin’s daughter had had a different teaching about human sexuality her situation could have been avoided.
Perhaps the money spent on marching around, getting people riled up about other people’s business, then maybe that time and money could work to support the babies that are born and help the need for abortion to go away. They could adopt the child that was born with defects etc…
I have noticed that some of the so called pro_lifer’s are some of the first to complain about welfare moms. Perhaps their time spent marching could benefit a mother who is struggling to get some time to her self would be happy for a few hours to relax or have some one help her with her child care.
If I see the the so called pro-life people happily having their taxes raised, and make huge sacrifices to help the children born not just in this country but other countries as well, I may then see things differently than now. Every Pro-choice person I know is also Pro_life and the use of the term is a mis-nomer.
Positive actions do more good than stirring up radicals!!
I am extremely sickened and extremely outraged. Killing a doctor will not stop one abortion. Killing in church is absolutely unexcusable.
I did hear an anti-abortion speaker on the news last night asking “pro-abortionists” not to turn this into a “political matter.” Hello? It was a political murder, pure and simple. Do those folks have a fucking clue?
I had a baby I tried for four years to conceive. She is now ten.
Inconveniences - I was tired all the time and ended up with stretch marks.
I also had toxemia to the point it was impacting my liver. I lost about $12k in income in lost work during my pregnancy (short term disability only picks up so much). I still have urinary incontinence after ten years of kegals. I also have back pain that started during pregnancy that years of treatment hasn’t solved. Following delivery I had treatment for carpal tunnel with the surgeon believes was pregnancy related. I tore a three inch tear that had me barely able to walk for two weeks during delivery. And my pregnancy was easy compared to other people I know.
Inconvenient is having to go two miles out of my way to pick up your dry cleaning. Inconvenient is having your out of town friend stay with you for a week when you already have other plans. Peeing every time you sneeze for the rest of your life starts to go past merely inconvenient. Ending up a diabetic (as several of my friends have) or in lifelong pain (as I have) is definitely past merely inconvenient.
I’ve heard of women who sail through pregnancy comfortably, they glow in pregnancy, and delivering a child is not the marathon of pain it was for me. But for most women, pregnancy - even of a wanted child - exceeds inconvenient.
Most anti-abortionists want to make abortion illegal. If they think that should be done legally, by overturning Roe v. Wade, I can go along with that. Of course Rv.W is never going to be overturned, as there is no legal reason it can be.
If they think it should be done by shooting clinic workers, blocking clinics, harassing women going into clinics or women who have had abortions, or any other way, they are nasty, evil, disgusting people who should be legally stopped.
In short, anti-abortionists should obey the laws, even the ones they don’t agree with.
How many of you who have said that you think that abortion is murder have stood at the door to an abortion clinic and said to a woman entering: "I will raise and nurture your child and love it all the days of my life if you will not abort it?
Think of all of the chances to revent “murder” that you have passed up! You may not be a wealthy person, but surely you could have saved a life or two. And if all of the pro-life people organized, they could prevent the death of many fetuses.
If you don’t do this, this aren’t you also responsible? You are the ones who see this as murder. Not the mothers and not the doctors and not the law of the land.
How many anti-abortionists have said “If you bear this child, I will support you and your child for the rest of your lives?” Thinking that being forced to give birth and then give the baby away is a good idea is ridiculous and unfeeling.
No, that’s a bunch of dumb bullshit. Godwin’s Law states that as an internet (message board, usenet group) argument goes on, the probability of someone mentioning Hitler or Nazis approaches 1:1. Nothing in Godwin’s Law as originally stated implies anything about the discussion at hand or its validity.
Also, a bit from the comments on Balloon Juice:
In 1994 my wife and I found out that she was pregnant. The pregnancy was difficult and unusually uncomfortable but her doctor repeatedly told her things were fine. Sometime early in the 8th month my wife, an RN who at the time was working in an infertility clinic asked the Dr. she was working for what he thought of her discomfort. He examined her and said that he couldn’t be certain but thought that she might be having twins. We were thrilled and couldn’t wait to get a new sonogram that hopefully would confirm his thoughts. Two days later our joy was turned to unspeakable sadness when the new sonogram showed conjoined twins. Conjoined twins alone is not what was so difficult but the way they were joined meant that at best only one child would survive the surgery to separate them and the survivor would more than likely live a brief and painful life filled with surgery and organ transplants. We were advised that our options were to deliver into the world a child who’s life would be filled with horrible pain and suffering or fly out to Wichita Kansas and to terminate the pregnancy under the direction of Dr. George Tiller.
We made an informed decision to go to Kansas. One can only imagine the pain borne by a woman who happily carries a child for 8 months only to find out near the end of term that the children were not to be and that she had to make the decision to terminate the pregnancy and go against everything she had been taught to believe was right. This was what my wife had to do. Dr. Tiller is a true American hero. The nightmare of our decision and the aftermath was only made bearable by the warmth and compassion of Dr. Tiller and his remarkable staff. Dr. Tiller understood that this decision was the most difficult thing that a woman could ever decide and he took the time to educate us and guide us along with the other two couples who at the time were being forced to make the same decision after discovering that they too were carrying children impacted by horrible fetal anomalies. I could describe in great detail the procedures and the pain and suffering that everyone is subjected to in these situations. However, that is not the point of the post. We can all imagine that this is not something that we would wish on anyone. The point is that the pain and suffering were only mitigated by the compassion and competence of Dr. George Tiller and his staff. We are all diminished today for a host of reasons but most of all because a man of great compassion and courage has been lost to the world.
(end quote)
So you folks calling Dr. Tiller a cold-blooded murderer or any number of other variations on that theme can pretty much shut the fuck up and go back to your black-and-white world where you see “abortion” and immediately think “heinous demonic baby-killer,” no actual rational thought involved and no empathy whatsoever required - or, indeed, displayed.
Of course I know that the law itself does not state that. But it’s pretty much a rule anyway
Inappropriate is the operative word. If you feel that the comparison was inappropriate, perhaps you should explain why instead of screaming, “GODWIN’S LAW!” and flinging your own excrement.
At this point, invoking Godwin’s Law tends to be more a sign that you are losing an argument, not that the person you invoke it against is.
Leaving aside the fact that you’re trying to cite a blog, the hand in the first picture is clearly not gripping anything, least of all the surgeon’s finger. It’s clenched, which is indicative of nothing other than the fact that the hand is fully formed. The brainstem begins to develop a discrete medulla as early as 6 weeks- which simply means it becomes capable of certain instinctual responses, not of anything approaching thought or even actual brain activity.
Your second cite shows that a foetus- just one, though that’s enough- was viable at 21 weeks of gestation, which is remarkable, but certainly doesn’t “prove me wrong”. Foetal development occurs in leaps and bounds, not gradual metered steps.
Oh, and by the way… cite. (Long, lots of big words, doesn’t fit into your worldview.)
If it’s a choice between the mother and the infant, of course it isn’t murder. Do you cry murder whenever a firefighter rescues one person but in doing so is forced to allow another to die?
Maybe.
I’m as pro-choice as anyone, but this is simply not true. Roe v. Wade is bad law. It’s a very good thing overall, but it didn’t (and doesn’t) do much for the dignity of the judiciary.
That said, the right-to-life crowd would have condemned Roe and the SCOTUS even if it was the least legally controversial ruling ever, so I guess it doesn’t matter.
None of your business what form of birth control people choose. It has nothing to do with you. Are you going to go around telling people that they need to choose condoms over the sponge? IUD over the pill?
Do I need to explain that comparing a Dr. performing legal abortions to Hitler is not appropriate???
What excrement?
How so?
At what point?
Please don’t change the name of a poster when you are using the quote tags. No warnings issued.
Gfactor
Pit Moderator
The “point” is “some time ago”. As for how, it’s been misused too often as a means of trying to shut people up who make perfectly valid comparisons of something to Hitler and the Nazis, or just use them as an example, without actually having to argue the point.
I am pro-choice, but I find that hard to believe. I have friends who are anti-abortion. There are not evil and they definitely do not want to harm women.
Do you want to imply that comparing Dr. Tiller to Hitler is perfectly valid? Reasonable? Appropriate?
We might just as well murder everybody, since we can come up with Hitler in any discussion. Vegetarians should be murdered; Proprietors of German shepherd dogs; Unsuccessful painters; People wearing a mustache;
Do they belong to a terrorist enabling organization, such as Operation Rescue?
People don’t have to be evil in order to support evil.