Oh, I forgot, you never back up your claims.
For the record, I’m asking SA to back up his claims on brain wave development.
Finally figured out nobody knew what the hell you were talking about, eh?
You are such a dolt. What claims do you imagine I’ve made with regard to brain wave development?
If you wait long enough, they all do.
So true.
:: walks away humming: We think we’re gliding down the highway, when in fact we’re slip-sliding away ::
He says, then goes on to reply at length. I noticed that you were unable to summarize what my position was that was “incorrect.” You should, at this point, apologize, but instead, you attack my character, even though, so sorry, you were wrong. The facts are arrayed against you. But that’s a position with which you are very familiar, and it never provokes any reflection from you. Sad, really.
I was begging you to think, just once, for a change. I see that my entreaty failed, but I’m not surprised. I shouldn’t have bothered to even try, or to imagine that you’d consider that you were wrong.
No, this is a thread about Dr. Tiller’s murder. He was killed for giving women third trimester abortions. He lived in a state where you have to have a medical reason for having one, yet you oafishly posit that women are killing their perfectly viable fetuses because of fucking Sk8r Boi. When you posted that gem of stupidity, it had already been pointed out to you several times that this was NOT what Dr. Tiller was doing in Kansas, and all the valid and tragic reasons why a woman would have a third trimester abortion. But no, god forbid you should think compassionately or with insight about a woman forced to make such a horrible choice. You go on to write that crap about Becky Bonehead, without considering the fact that ALL the women on whom Dr. Tiller performed abortions were carrying children with grave medical abnormalities, and who in all likelihood would have loved to have and raise a healthy baby.
Do you get it now? Or are you going to keep insisting on the reasonability of your Becky Bonehead scenario for third trimester abortions?
No, lots of things do NOT fall under that umbrella. How many times does this have to be pointed out to you? It’s not that I’m a delicate flower, it’s that I cannot abide when a person a snide post to score political points based on complete ignorance, when the means to fight that ignorance is readily available but ignored, because then, he wouldn’t be able to push forward his biased, and in this case, totally incorrect, assertions about women who have third trimester abortions.
Abortion is an emotional and sensitive topic for a lot of people, not just me. Making flippant and totally unsupportable assertions about why women have them, especially this particular kind, is insensitive, but hurtful? You couldn’t hurt me over the internet, sparky. I don’t take what you say seriously enough. Now, if you can’t be bother to educate yourself on why women have third trimester abortions, and just what rules governed who Dr. Tiller could and did perform them on, all you’re going to post is ignorant nonsense, so you’d be well advised to stay the hell out of the thread to begin with.
Oh, I’ll still speak to you. The way you like to follow me around, taking personally things I say in a general way and regurgitating things I say so inaccurately that they are hardly recognizable, it would be hard not to. What I won’t do anymore is attempt to treat you with respect and consideration and deal with you as though you were a reasonable person trying to have an honest dialog. Instead I’ll treat you like the hysterical, disagreeable, hot-headed wacko with severe reading comprehension problems that you’ve shown yourself to be time and again.
As for your posts to me in this thread, hardly a paragraph exists in which you’ve correctly analyzed or interpreted what I’ve had to say. I could go back through them and show how you’re wrong on virtually every point you’ve made, but I have more enjoyable things to do this evening than waste more time on you. I’m confident that intelligent, unbiased readers will take my words in the way I mean them, whether they agree with them or not, and that they will readily see how you tend to extrapolate all sorts of nonsense from what I’ve said that simply isn’t there.
You do realize that you’re in a public forum, and posting in the same thread as you hardly constitutes me following you around, unless you are a paranoid egomaniac, which I’ll leave our gentle readers to decide.
I didn’t take it personally. I thought it was flagrantly ignorant of what a woman in her third trimester would think or feel. I stand by that assertion, since I happen to be one of those women.
You are not a reasonable person trying to have an honest dialogue. You posted out of ignorance and still stubbornly refuse to fight that ignorance. That is neither reasonable nor honest. I think you are afraid of the possibility that you might feel sympathy for a woman who has an abortion, even one as horrifying as a third trimester abortion. You have to create snide, flippant scenarios to cast aspersions on these women, and by extension Dr. Tiller, rather than educate yourself. That’s just not reasonable. It’s operating out of bias, which is your MO.
Sticks and stones will break my bones, but mean names from you are a badge of honor, since you are one of the most willfully ignorant, biased, intellectually dishonest posters on this board, and that’s saying a lot. You can use sexist, dismissive words like “hysterical” all you want, but have you produced one fact in this argument? OR have YOU shown some pretty obvious reading problems? I think that you have.
So what you’re saying is, you can’t go back and show how I’ve misread you, but you’re going to pretend you’re too busy to do it. This is also totally typical of you, when asked for facts. You opt out of the reasonable, fact-based part of the discussion with insults, and then say you have other things to do. It’s bullshit. Either point out where I was incorrect, or shut up. I don’t think you’re capable of doing either.
You wouldn’t know an intelligent, unbiased reader if one was replying to you right now. Everyone reading this thread knows how you meant your Becky Bonehead and Sk8r Boi parable. It’s plain for anyone to see. The fact that you can’t see it proves my point for me.
I can believe that at least one woman in this country has abused her right to have a late-term abortion, and terminated a perfectly healthy fetus that would cause her no harm if it was carried to term. The question is: SO WHAT?? People can be irresponsible. We know this. Does that mean we should prohibit access to a procedure that might, on occasion, be used irresponsibly? Because if we go down that road, we can start by repealing the Second Amendment, and continue on until we’ve banned anything more dangerous than cotton balls. And even those will require a government permit.
I agree with this post in spirit, entirely. However, in the specific case of Dr. Tiller, there were legal reasons why he was not terminating pregnancies in the way characterized by Starving Artist. I’m sure that there are women who would terminate perfectly viable third trimester babies out there in the world, but they weren’t getting abortions from Dr. Tiller.
Okay, I’ll play for a little while since my program doesn’t start for twenty-five minutes yet. How did I mean it?
And btw, you might notice I eschewed the use of Sk8r Boi in favor of Skater Boi so that he would be more representative of the country’s skate board nitwits in general rather than Avril Levigne’s rock-star-in-the-making. I’m sure you think you’re being hip and cool and youthful and all by using it the way you are, but by doing so you are assigning an image to my skateboarding miscreant that is inaccurate.
Would your response be “SO WHAT??” if she had the baby and then killed it because she was too irresponsible to face the consequences of motherhood? What’s the difference between killing it a day before it’s born and the day after?
I said upthread and I’ll say it again here: I have no problem with late-term abortions done to save the mother’s life, though I strongly believe a more humane way of doing it should be required. My question, and the one that set Rubystreak off, went to just how many of these late-term abortions are truly carried out in order to save the mother, vs. how many may be carried out by impassioned liberal doctors determined to allow any woman who wants a late-term abortion to have one under the guise of a medical emergency that may not, in fact, exist?
And like I also said - and which she apparently missed - I don’t know if this is the case or not. But some of the comments made by some of Dr. Tiller’s colleagues have given me pause in this regard, and in my opinion stringent efforts need to be made that unborn babies are not being killed in these clinics simply because it’s an expedient way out for women who simply don’t want their babies.
I should also point out that, although she is utterly ignorant of the fact, Rubystreak herself could not possibly know whether such abortions occasionally or regularly take place in these clinics.
And you know that how? And if you do know it, haven’t you just substantiated the substance of my own scenario upthread?
Read what I fucking wrote. I laid it out for you very clearly. Now, if you could please point out where I was incorrect, I’d love to see it. All you have is pathetic nitpicks like this:
You were making an Avril Lavigne reference, you were just spelling it wrong. Get over it.
Are you accusing Dr. Tiller of breaking the law in Kansas? A link to the law was posted in this thread. Please read it. It clearly states that frivolous or elective abortions were not legal in that state. Thus, if you’re alleging that Dr. Tiller did give an abortion to someone like Becky Bonehead, you are alleging that he broke the law. I’ll have to ask for a cite before I go any further in such a discussion with you. The burden of proof is on you here.
I have no intention of going back through all that nonsense you wrote. You made a bunch of blanket denials couched in the assumption that Dr. Tiller was not performing illegal abortions because he simply wasn’t.
[Quote=Rubystreak]
You were making an Avril Lavigne reference, you were just spelling it wrong. Get over it.
[/quote]
Again, you are speaking with the voice of authority and making a blanket claim that is false simply because you want it to be true. You can believe me or not, I don’t care. But you have to understand that it makes me chuckle watching you assertively declare something about my thinking in constructing a post that I know to be absolutely false. Further, it also serves to strengthen my already low opinon of your judgement and intellect.
Nope.
[Quote=Rubystreak]
A link to the law was posted in this thread. Please read it. It clearly states that frivolous or elective abortions were not legal in that state.
[/quote]
Wow, you know what? Our state has laws on the books saying that you can’t murder people. Guess what happened night before last?
[Quote=Rubystreak]
Thus, if you’re alleging that Dr. Tiller did give an abortion to someone like Becky Bonehead, you are alleging that he broke the law. I’ll have to ask for a cite before I go any further in such a discussion with you. The burden of proof is on you here.
[/QUOTE]
Thus? Thus? That’s rich. You make a false assumption, and then presume to use it as the logical lead-in to your next false assumption.
I never said nor implied that Dr. Tiller broke the law. In fact, I never mentioned Dr. Tiller at all, save for mention on Wiki that he had been charged with several crimes related to his clinic. Another poster found info that he had been acquitted and so I let it drop. (I’ve also said these very same things upthread. Since you’re supposedly so big on reading before posting, I’m surprised you don’t know this already.)
What I did do was question whether perhaps some of the doctors in these three clinics might have occasionally or regularly been performing abortions illegally under the guise of medical necessity. It wasn’t a statement; it wasn’t an allegation; and it never mentioned Dr. Tiller. So you’re wrong. As usual.
WRONG. It’s a crime and he was never convicted of it. I was saying he wasn’t performing illegal abortions because there is no evidence that he was. You haven’t proven it and claim you’re not even alleging it. So what exactly did I deny and where was my false assumption? What did I say that you’re disagreeing with?
What in the fuck are you on about? You are agreeing with me that Dr. Tiller never performed illegal abortions. That was my point, and is a matter of legal record, not a matter of “being true because I want it to be true.” That is false, as is so much of what you post. So what is your problem exactly?
This is relevant how? Dr. Tiller was performing legal abortions. You admit that he did nothing illegal. So what if people commit murder? Dr. Tiller, under the law, did not. End of story.
Your Becky Bonehead scenario would be illegal in Kansas, and in fact in most states, unless a doctor felt her mental health was in such grave jeopardy that an abortion was warranted. Do you think your scenario would reasonably ever end in a legal abortion in the United States? If so, please state why, and where, you think it would happen. Dr. Tiller would not give old Becky an abortion. So what was your point in posting it in a thread about Dr. Tiller?
So you are, in the form of a “question,” positing the possibility that Dr. Tiller or one of the other doctors who perform these late term abortions were criminals. You don’t have the balls to flat-out state it, because then you couldn’t post weasely prevarications like the one above. No, you’re just “questioning,” in the most snide and obnoxious way possible, if some of these doctors might give some frivolous idiot an illegal third trimester abortion and lie about its medical necessity. Is that about right?
I don’t doubt that there exist in the world people who would want to abort a perfectly viable baby in the third trimester. Of course such people exist, in a world of 6 billion people, some of whom want to do all kinds of terrible things. Does it happen? It’s not legal to do it, so you’d have to be arguing that abortion doctors are acting illegally, and the burden of proof is on you. Look over this article by the Guttmacher Institute, summarizing the Supreme Court’s stance, with a state by state breakdown of restrictions on late term abortions. None of them allow a doctor carte blanche in performing third trimester abortions. Thus, your Becky Bonehead abortion scenario is simply not credible. Can you at least admit that now?
Exactly. If you had said there was no evidence he was performing illegal abortions you would have been on safe ground. But you took it a step further and claimed definitively that he wasn’t based on nothing more than no convictions and laws on the books. There are all sorts of criminal activity going on everywhere that no one has been convicted of. That doesn’t mean the crimes haven’t occurred. (And again, I’m not necessarily saying that Dr. Tiller was performing illegal abortions, only that he could have been and that you have no way to know for sure.)
If I’m not alleging Dr. Tiller was performing illegal abortions, why would I attempt to prove it?
That Dr. Tiller wasn’t performing illegal abortions. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn’t. You simply have no way of knowing.
In this particular instance, that you assert motivations with regard to my choice of Skater Boi that are false, and which I know to be false. You are telling me flatly what was in my own mind, and I have first-hand knowledge that you are wrong. This does not speak highly of your intelligence or your judgement.
Are you nuts? I never said any such thing.
Asked and answered.
Are you nuts? I never said any such thing.
Elementary, my dear dingbat. The point is that simply because laws exist, it doesn’t mean they can’t be or aren’t broken. Your posting of Kansas law in no way proves that Dr. Tiller or anyone else wasn’t performing illegal abortions.
Not quite (and how many times do I have to say this?). Dr. Tiller, under the law, was found not guilty of the crimes he was charged with. That doesn’t mean he never broke the law, only that, if he was (and again I’m not saying he was, only that he might have been) it was never discovered and brought before a court of law.
Exactly! Now we get down to it. Her ‘mental health’ is now sufficient to warrant the killing of an almost full-term unborn baby! Can you not see how this excuse can be applied to virtually any woman seeking an abortion? I haven’t looked at the Kansas law you posted because I couldn’t get it to load and haven’t been back since, but if Kansas law allows abortion to protect the mother’s mental health, they might as well open the doors to all and sundry. In my opinion the only justifications for late-term abortions is to save the mother’s life, or to abort a child that would be so hideously disfigured or severly mentally disabled.
Most likely in one of the three abortion clinics in the country willing to perform third trimester abortions.
You don’t know that.
Oh, I don’t know. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
Oh, wait…there was talk about only three clinics in the country where third trimester abortions take place, and it seemed to me likely that they might actually be abortion mills in disguise, given that so many doctors around the country refuse to perform these abortions and yet there is virtually no hue and cry among this country’s abortion proponents about all the women dying around the country for lack of late-term abortive access. So something seemed amiss. Either lots of women had to be dying around the country because their doctors refused to abort their late-term fetuses…in which case I’m sure we’d be hearing about it non-stop from abortion’s supporters, or there really weren’t that many cases where third trimester abortion is genuinely life-threatening and so these clinics may exist in order to cook up legitimate-sounding medical reasons for what are really abortions of convenience. And as I said, I don’t know this to be a fact but I do know it to be a possibility. So in the interest of discussion and ignorance-fighting and all, I posited the question in, uh, question.
Yes.
No balls required. It was implicit in the question, although my primary focus was on the unborn babies who were perhaps being horrifically killed in these clinics rather than on the criminal culpability of the physicians.
Nope, no weaseling, nor prevarication…as is probably obvious to everyone but you.
No, I’m suggesting that some of these doctors might be giving many frivolous women illegal third-trimester abortions, and posited only one of many different situations that could arise in which one might be sought.
Nope. Again, I’m not arguing it; I’m merely suggesting that it’s possible.
No. You said yourself that a risk to a woman’s mental health can be sufficient reason to abort third-trimester babies (and frankly, it was just this type of justification that I was suspicious of all along as it could be applied to just about anyone not qualifying otherwise), so then all it takes to set up an abortion mill is to establish a clinic populated with doctors who have no qualms about aborting third-trimester pregnancies. And since there seem to be so few doctors around the country willing to do that, only three such clinics come into being. And given that I have a hard time imagining doctors around the country standing idly by while their patients die as a result of their pregnancies, I’m more than a little skeptical that there are really that many dire situations in which a woman’s life is truly at stake due to her pregnancy…and that in turn makes me skeptical about just how much danger the women who find their way to these three clinics are really in, and whether or not these clinics exist legitimately, or to see to it that any woman who wants an abortion and can get to their clinic can get one, one way or the other.
Now again I’m not saying this is most certainly the case. But I am saying that the possibility of it is a reasonable concern.
Evidence suggests one factor may be the limitations of body-armor technology.
Bored now. Can we get back to flaming the murderer of Dr. Tiller, and let this stop being a thread about Starving Artist?
Fucking murderer.
I heard a radio report that Operation Rescue wants to buy the now-shuttered clinic. If I were a member of the Tiller family, I’d bulldoze the place and sow it with salt before I’d let them get their blood-stained hands on it, no matter how many proxies they try to sneak the purchase through.
Personally, I’d sell it to anyone who wanted it. I’d make the price quite high and I’d announce that all proceeds are going to help the other doctor who is stepping into the fray.
If they want to fund him, that’s peachy keen with me.
But you are alleging exactly that:
So, without proof, just because this is a right wing talking point, you’re trying to create doubt about the doctors who perform third trimester abortions. It’s not possible that, because there are so few of them, and scrutiny is so great, that they might NOT be criminals. Nope, you won’t believe it, because they are doing something you disagree with. That is the definition of a biased view blocking a person’s logic, but since this is the Starving Artist Show, your audience expects no less.
You are, through this stupid parable, trying to create a truly loathsome scenario where an illegal third trimester abortion would be performed. This scenario casts the abortion doctors as criminals. Isn’t that the point of posting it? So how exactly am I wrong in asserting your motivations? Why not be honest about your motivations now, since you’ve made them amply clear?
Because this, above, is it. Take a crap on Dr. Tiller, who was murdered for being brave enough to use his medical skill to commit acts of compassion that few others were willing to perform, because you believe, without proof, that he was probably a criminal. Very nice.
If you’re going to make this unwarranted extrapolation, please do some research on exactly what situations warrant an abortion based on the mother’s mental health, and how often it happened, and what other conditions were placed on it beside just that. I’ll sit here and wait for your answer. Otherwise, you’re spouting off from ignorance again, making assumptions about what it means. Your willingness to post uninformed crap like this continues to astound and delight me.
Good, that does free you up some then.
Surely you have some proof for such a serious allegation. Surely, since so many people are against such abortions, there would be some way of backing up a claim like this. Again, we’ll wait for it.
And I’m suggesting that your mother was a 12 year old syphilitic whore who dropped you on your head repeated. I’m not arguing it or saying it’s true. I’m merely suggesting it’s possible. See how nice is when people make truly loathsome insinuations without proof?
I didn’t say it. The Supreme Court of the United States said it. Don’t like it? Too bad, because it’s the law of the land. Now, on top of that, there are many restrictions, imposed on a state by state basis. That is not the only criteria. Did you bother to read the Guttmacher Institute cite I posted, or are you just running your idiot mouth out of ignorance again? I think we all know which it is, because if you had read it instead of being a lazy, partisan blabbermouth, you’d know exactly how wrong and impossible your scenario is.
Get out your reading glasses, do some reading and a little googling (of unbiased websites, please), then when come back bring brain. OK?
Required? What if there IS no other way? Sometimes, it’s the safest way, or the only way – at least, if a woman still wants to have children again in the future.
Why are you so bound and determined to think so little of women? What IS your problem?