Doctor Who Series Five: UK pace thread [edited title]

[Eyebrows_0f_Doom]

@Cardinal

Given the geek factor of the audience though, I think there are some very weird choices. A space whale??? Seriously? First off, it’s a “space whale”? Second, it doesn’t need to eat or breathe? Third, it can propel itself in a vacuum? These are things the DW audience just lets slide?

The whole show seems like an exercise in adults taking script ideas from ten year olds and trying to make something decent out of it. “There are rhinoceros cops chasing a woman who sucks out your blood.” “Everyone’s stuck in a traffic jam by the bad government and are chased by giant crabs.” (I’ve started in on Series 3, too.) I’m not trying to just dump on the whole thing, but it is surprising, especially given the fanbase character and size it has.

Eh, it’s a show revolving around sci-fi space monsters. You kinda just have to go with it.

[Monkey_Chews]

@Cardinal

Given the geek factor of the audience though, I think there are some very weird choices. A space whale??? Seriously? First off, it’s a “space whale”? Second, it doesn’t need to eat or breathe? Third, it can propel itself in a vacuum? These are things the DW audience just lets slide?

Yep.

The whole show seems like an exercise in adults taking script ideas from ten year olds and trying to make something decent out of it.

Wow, what a perfectly brilliant description of Doctor Who! I’d say more like 7-8 year olds, but yeah, apart from that, spot on.

“There are rhinoceros cops chasing a woman who sucks out your blood.” “Everyone’s stuck in a traffic jam by the bad government and are chased by giant crabs.”

And don’t forget the giant head in a jar attended by a gun-wielding cat nun, clockwork robots from the 51st century hunting the head of a woman in 18th century France, oversized wasps obsessed with the novels of Agatha Christie, shop dummies that come alive, giant man-eating maggots and robots made out of liquorice all-sorts.

I’m gathering the angels are not new villains?

They appeared before in the episode “Blink”, which is later in series 3. It was a hugely popular episode (and won a Hugo!)

Is the duck pond the one outside Amy’s house? Does the Doctor seem to be implying that only he can remember that there used to be ducks in it?

Yep, it’s the one in Amy’s village, and although it seemed to be a throwaway away comment about at the time, there now does seem to be some significance to the idea that everyone knows it’s a duck pond, but no-one remembers any ducks ever being in it.

[WotNot]

@Cardinal

I have to say, this is a very weird show. I’d heard about it 20 years ago, but it was almost completely unknown, and even the adherents admitted it was a cult taste.

Given the geek factor of the audience though, I think there are some very weird choices. A space whale??? Seriously? First off, it’s a “space whale”? Second, it doesn’t need to eat or breathe? Third, it can propel itself in a vacuum? These are things the DW audience just lets slide?

The whole show seems like an exercise in adults taking script ideas from ten year olds and trying to make something decent out of it. “There are rhinoceros cops chasing a woman who sucks out your blood.” “Everyone’s stuck in a traffic jam by the bad government and are chased by giant crabs.” (I’ve started in on Series 3, too.) I’m not trying to just dump on the whole thing, but it is surprising, especially given the fanbase character and size it has.

You’re American, aren’t you?

You have to forget about the assumption that an SF TV series is necessarily cult viewing for a minority geek audience. Doctor Who in the UK is a big mainstream family show, and that’s the audience it’s made for. Any geeks watching just have to adapt to that.

[Candyman74]

@Cardinal

I have to say, this is a very weird show. I’d heard about it 20 years ago, but it was almost completely unknown, and even the adherents admitted it was a cult taste.

Given the geek factor of the audience though, I think there are some very weird choices. A space whale??? Seriously? First off, it’s a “space whale”? Second, it doesn’t need to eat or breathe? Third, it can propel itself in a vacuum? These are things the DW audience just lets slide?

It’s a mainstream kids show shown at peak time, not an obscure cult geek show. It gets viewing figures of 8-10 million regularly, and higher than that at the Christmas episodes.

The target audience is not some American geek, it’s the average 10-year old British child and his/her family.

It’s absolutely not a geek show; it’s very mainstream.

[JohnT]

I have a question (Yank here, on US pace, but I don’t worry about spoilers):

The 10th Doctor goes to see Rose in 2005. He gets in the TARDIS, throws it in motion, and begins to regenerate. The TARDIS lands at Amy Pond’s house…

What year does that happen? 1996? Is there anything that establishes that 7 year-old Amy is in 1996?

[DSeid]

@JohnT

I have a question (Yank here, on US pace, but I don’t worry about spoilers):

The 10th Doctor goes to see Rose in 2005. He gets in the TARDIS, throws it in motion, and begins to regenerate. The TARDIS lands at Amy Pond’s house…

What year does that happen? 1996? Is there anything that establishes that 7 year-old Amy is in 1996?

Only that it is apparently current time when they next meet and counting backwards. OTOH some early posts noted that the Tardis was hurtling past some modern London structures during its crash. Significant or production error? I vote the latter.

[Candyman74]

@DSeid

Only that it is apparently current time when they next meet and counting backwards. OTOH some early posts noted that the Tardis was hurtling past some modern London structures during its crash. Significant or production error? I vote the latter.

Well, the TARDIS doesn’t really worry about space or time. I imagine it’s as likely to hurtle randomly thorugh space in a crash landing as it is to hurtle randomly through time. I guess it was lucky he didn’t end up in an ice age or something!

[Merijeek]

@DSeid

Only that it is apparently current time when they next meet and counting backwards. OTOH some early posts noted that the Tardis was hurtling past some modern London structures during its crash. Significant or production error? I vote the latter.

I don’t know about that. There’s way too many thinks people are chalking up to “production errors” that all point toward anachronisms and other timey-wimey stuff.

Either they’ve been incredibly sloppy or it’s deliberate.

-Joe

[JohnT]

@DSeid

Only that it is apparently current time when they next meet and counting backwards. OTOH some early posts noted that the Tardis was hurtling past some modern London structures during its crash. Significant or production error? I vote the latter.

OK, does that mean that they are “officially” two years in the future from now? (remember, when they “next met” was the Atraxi invasion, he leaves and comes back two years later the night before her wedding).

… or maybe I’m just over-thinking it.

[Merijeek]

@JohnT

OK, does that mean that they are “officially” two years in the future from now? (remember, when they “next met” was the Atraxi invasion, he leaves and comes back two years later the night before her wedding).

… or maybe I’m just over-thinking it.

I was thinking “modern features” meant more in the lines of “stuff from after 1996” - like The Eye.

Any other landmarks some of the board’s tea-slurping fog breathers want to clarify for us?

-Joe

[typoink]

@Merijeek

Now they can apparently turn off and on their observance ability - they can’t move while they know they’re being observed, but they can choose to NOT move if they THINK they’re being observed.

My wank: perhaps being forced into a quantum lock is more draining or painful or whatnot than locking up voluntarily – hence they’ll do it voluntarily when they think there’s a risk. Especially when they’re weakened / frightened / trying to keep their head down.

Also, River Song has made it pretty blatantly clear that she’s the Doctor’s wife in his past, her future. She seems to think she’s got all the knowledge in their relationship, which is funny seeing how he knows how she dies, seeing as how he was there.

I think she’s only made it clear that that’s the impression she wants to give.

[Merijeek]

@typoink

I think she’s only made it clear that that’s the impression she wants to give.

Sure, but if we’re going to assume she’s lying about everything, there’s no point to considering anything she says…

-Joe

[DSeid]

But we are not assuming lying, just being willing to let people conclude false impressions. She did not say they were married, she just didn’t deny it explicitly. Actually sort of did, said something about that it is more complicated than that.

[scr4]

@Merijeek

I was thinking “modern features” meant more in the lines of “stuff from after 1996” - like The Eye.

Any other landmarks some of the board’s tea-slurping fog breathers want to clarify for us?

The Millenium Dome was very clearly visible throughout one scene (the very first view of London). And then it cuts to the interior shot of the TARDIS, and the Dome fills up the background, through the open door.

But after the TARDIS narrowly misses the Big Ben, there’s a big jolt, which may very well represent a time jump several years into the past.

[Walker_in_Eternity]

@DSeid

And River Song kills the Doctor in one Timeline to save the other one? Or both timelines?? Both put at risk by the Doctor trying to rewrite history?

I get very confused. But in a good way.

My wife and I also picked up on the River killing the Doctor theme, this will be interesting if it comes to pass.

Maybe Moffat has realised that his retcons will eventually kill the show due to diminishing ratings and is plannign for the final end.

I thought the second part of this episode was weaker than the first, but am optimistic about the vampires next week.

[Rrose_Selavy]

There’s still too much of a similarity between “monsters”
In previous series , it’s too often been inanimate objects eg dolls/zombies coming to life or people being "taken "over, again and again…

Now next week’s Vampires are wearing the same teeth as the Angels.

Can’t they come up with something less obviously repetitive?

[Candyman74]

@Walker_in_Eternity

My wife and I also picked up on the River killing the Doctor theme

Well, it’d be pretty hard not to pick up on it!

And because it’s so blatant, I’m convinced that it was not the Doctor she killed. It’s too obvious for that.

[Walker_in_Eternity]

@Candyman74

Well, it’d be pretty hard not to pick up on it!

And because it’s so blatant, I’m convinced that it was not the Doctor she killed. It’s too obvious for that.

I hope you’re right, but Moffat’s writing so far has not been up to his earlier standard. Plus I think his ego is getting the better of him, he said something in Confidential the other week like " I’m in charge now and they are my monsters, so I’ll bring them back if I want to".

Seems to me that it’s all gone to his head and he’s just writing fanwank now. Besides, the death of the Doctor has already been done ( in a non canon way) in the brilliant “Alien Bodies” by Lawrence Miles.

You never know, killing off the main character might be the way to go, just have a couple of former assistants stuck on the TARDIS trying to get home as it moves through space and time. Bring back a sense of the randomness of the early adventures when the Doctor couldn’t make the TARDIS materialise perfectly at any point in time or space.

Of course it wouldn’t be Doctor Who anymore, but neither was ST:TNG the same as TOS and yet that ran for seven seasons, plus three movies.

[vdgg81]

I also thought the implication was that River had killed the Doctor.

I thought the episode was ok, but am reserving judgment till later. It seems this one will have to be appreciated in context with the rest of the season when it’s done and that’s disappointing but not the end of the world. I really prefer my Who to have it’s stories able to function independently of each other, so I felt this was a let down, even though it may grow on me later.

A large retcon of the RTD years would seriously piss me off - I think retcons in general are usually bad for their shows prospects and would personally feel very put down. But again, I’ll reserve judgment and see it this is in fact what Moffat has in mind and how good the execution of it is.

[Don_Draper]

OK, just got finished watching “Flesh and Stone” online and have some questions/comments. I’m not quite sure what episode the US TV airing is at, I assume it’s been aired but just in case…

[spoiler]1. Anybody else think that “the good man” that River Song murdered was the Doctor himself? And that the incident in question will be a “moment in time that’s re-written”? Or perhaps that’s just what we’re being led to think…

2. They seemed to alter the premise of the Weeping Angels a bit. I haven’t seen “Blink” for a while, but IIRC they didn’t actually kill their victims, just fed on the ‘displaced chronal energy’ from sending their victims on a one-way trip through time (and ‘ate’ the energy from the life that might have been led.) Did they actually go around snapping necks in “Blink”?

3. I guess the ‘crack in time’ thing answers my previous question about ‘Henry Van Statten’ (I wiki-ed “Dalek” to get his name.) So the Battle of Canary Wharf, and the Stolen Earth never happened? That’d probably seriously effect all the events on “Torchwood” though. (The old Torchwood doesn’t get decimated in “Doomsday”, so Captain Jack never takes over, etc.) Did that series even take place now?
   [/spoiler]

Questions aside though, LOVED the story. The Weeping Angels are definitely one of the best monsters in Dr. Who history, and I’m loving the new team of Eleven & Amy more & more. Even if…

Amy is one hot-to-trot strumpet! I mean, the night before her wedding??? And hey, doesn’t she have any girlfriends to hang out with on her last night as a free woman?