Does common-sense courtesy differ between cultures?

The BBQ Pit
1

Yes! Roi-Et is hundreds of kilometers from Septimus’ province, but our shoppers handle their carts similarly. The aisles in the big foreign-owned stores are plenty wide enough for two carts to pass, but Thais almost always leave their cart in the middle, and one often waits politely for them to come move it out of the way.

I don’t want to sound like a nit-picker (and I certainly prefer that behavior to that of the (Oriental!) driver in Silicon Valley who once lectured me angrily when I slowed for a yellow light and thus made him lose an entire red-green cycle) but one does wonder why the Thais don’t learn to adopt a simple and obvious courtesy. Perhaps inconveniencing others is just not on their “radar screen.” Or, as some Westerners claim to believe, perhaps their comprehension of cause-and-effect is different from ours.

It’s not as though rudeness were general; indeed some Thai behaviour is strangely obsequious. Many Thais slouch down to lower their heads when passing a “higher status” person, and when your Thai waitress gives you your change, she’ll always use two hands, not one.

I’m sincerely curious whether anyone can explain the Thai “discourtesy” I’ve mentioned. I’ve no idea how the thread will develop, if at all, but it may be fun just to discuss Thai driving habits! And Westerners are not totally blameless there; after a few years in country some of us start driving like them!
I’m posting this thread in BBQ Pit so that participants can write frankly, and I won’t be surprised if septimus is accused of racism at some point, so let me address that now: I’m sure I’m much less racist than the average guy; I’ve done volunteer work in migrant Mexican camps, once had an Arab girlfriend, and am now married to a Thai. When Western expats meet for beer and disputation, it is septimus who more-often-than-not takes the pro-Thai position. But I will not bend the truth to appease some preconception that all cultures are equally rational or virtuous.

2

Anybody who has seen an Italian “queue” knows common courtesy differs remarkably between cultures.

3

One thing here is whether you have a reasonable expectation that others will obey the same rules.

For instance: in boarding an airplane, I’m fully aware that everything will be over sooner and the plane will take off more quickly if the plane is loaded from the back forward and everyone waits until their row is called to get in line. If I am in an airport where everything is reasonably managed and people are boarding in accordance with the program, I’ll happily sit and wait my turn.

However, I have no intention of being the one sap sitting in the front half of the plane who waits to board until late in the process, arriving to find that I have to go another five rows back to stow my bag overhead if I’m lucky enough even to find a place to do so. So if it looks like there’ll be a general rush to the plane (as in any airport in the Middle East, say), I’ll damn well be in the middle of the scrum.

4

Brazilian shoppers. Ack.

5

Here’s a similar one: in Hong Kong I used to have a problem with Filipino people on the subway, and even once in an elevator, who try to board before anyone else has got off. It drove me nuts - there are 20 people trying to get off the train - just stand aside for 1 minute and you’ll get on! The elevator incident was even more crazy as it was completely full (and at the top floor - its final destination), but three women still tried to push inside before we got out. I used to just put my hand on their chests and push them backwards out of the way. It was always Filipinos. Yet those I met - and even some of those I pushed - were perfectly charming, not rude at all - it’s just this one little bit of (what looks to me) logic that didn’t seem to be part of their etiquette.

6

The change in courtesy after I moved to Los Angeles after living in Toronto and the UK was rather an eye-opener.

7

I would suggest not only courtesy, but common sense :slight_smile:

8

One thing I’ve wondered about; when you move to a completely different country, do you not, at some point, notice that people do things differently there and adapt to the ways of your new country?

9

Septimus, don’t get me started…

Everyday on my way to work I walk through a Tesco Lotus and mall (it’s in between my place and the bus/taxi stop) One of this days I’m going to snap and buy a chainsaw to mow the hordes of oblivious people blocking the way.
It’s not something that happens just in supermarkets, this very morning I saw something unpleasantly common. The road to my office is a four lane one (Rama IX), the first week of every month the police shows up and starts stopping cars and motorbikes (coincidentally at the time of the month were people get paid), this usually causes an epic traffic jam. By the time I get to the point were the police were this was the scene: one lane blocked by the vehicles they stopped, another lane blocked by the policeman flagging down fresh victims and a third lane blocked by the vehicles that had to stop and move across to the first lane.
Now, if the traffic police behave like that, what can you expect of the regular yokels at the market?

10

Details?

11

If you’re driving in France, priority is generally given to traffic waiting to enter the highway from a side road. Unless it doesn’t. Common sense tells you who has the right of way.

12

It’s a stereotype, but in my experience an accurate one: Americans and Brits will form a neat, single-file line and wait their turn at (for example) the ticket office. Italians, however, will form a small scrum in front of the ticket office. If, in America or Britain, Italians will walk unselfconsciously to the front of the line and cut in.

I’ve heard Germans use the English method, and some other countries follow the Italian method, but I have not been to Germany to verify.

13

Brits do something Americans don’t - if there are two (or more) ticket booths, we form one big line for all of them. Americans won’t, and spend their time in line angrily muttering about how the line they didn’t pick is moving quicker. :wink:

14

To be fair some Americans will do that to, then sceam & abuse the clerk if told to go to the back of the line.

15

Oh yes, it definitely differs. The other day I was riding the escalator at the mall. There were a bunch of people ahead of me, hanging out and taking up the whole width of the escalator. I stood behind them slowly descending and just chilling, in one of these inexplicable good moods that you sometimes get, and I started thinking about when I went to Europe in 2002. In Switzerland, on the train and in stations, I was insulted and shoved around more times in the first day than I had been in my life up to that point. I was in someone’s way, my bags were in the wrong place, I was too slow, my bags were in someone’s way, and so on. In England they didn’t insult anyone, but it was very firmly understood that you had to keep to the left (or else the right) of any escalator so that people could pass you. Cool, all good and well, you go to those places, you keep to your side, you quickly learn to scoot out of people’s way. Or you go home.

Now at home (South Africa), you don’t worry so much about being in people’s way. But, equally, they don’t have to worry so much about being in your way. That’s also a kind of courtesy, and it’s the kind I prefer. Having the courtesy to stand there for a few seconds without shoving that family out of the way or snappily asking them to move. It doesn’t slow me down to any real extent, and it makes everyone more relaxed and happier (except for the foreigners who are tapping their feet and seething that the people don’t have the “courtesy” to move out of the way). It looks to me from the posts so far that the US is more “Swiss” and Thailand is more “South African”. But what I think is important is that members of “slower” cultures have just as much courtesy as those of “faster” cultures. It’s just that the system is different.

In other words, yes, what is “common sense” in courtesy is different between cultures. For example:

Switzerland / USA
Normal: Standing to one side
Moving out of the way quickly

Rude: Standing in someone’s way

South Africa / Thailand
Normal: Standing anywhere
Waiting patiently for someone to get out of the way
Rude: Getting upset or lecturing people for being in the way

So it’s not that people in some cultures are “entitled” or don’t consider others. In a society there’s always a tradeoff between me and others. I don’t want people blocking my space, I have to deal with being chewed out by others if I’m in their space. Or: I don’t want snippy people telling me what to do, I have to deal with others hanging around in front of me when I’m in a hurry. Two different cultures, two kinds of courtesy, but courtesy none the less.

And if you’re really in a hurry around here you can push through - just with an apologetic demeanor rather than an arrogant “you’re in my way!” (and interestingly, ducking your head is also a polite sign here, showing that you’re just passing through, not meaning to be any bother, rather than thinking that everyone should stand aside for you!)

16

A related thread from CS

17

Who tells them to go to the back of the line - the clerk or the other people on the line?

18

The other people in line, usually. Although somtimes it’s just general growling.

Really Not All That Bright, at least here in California, I’ve been seeing more of the one-line-multiple-paystations in the last decade. I’m not sure it’s any faster, but if it cuts down on people complaing about (or at) the clerks, I’m all for it.

19

Look, everyone hates going to the supermarket. You talk about how you will not “bend the truth,” but if you want some universal truth, here it is–the supermarket is a loathsome place. Hell, I am an expat, living in Japan (stereotypically known for being one of the politest places on this green earth) and I hate going to the supermarket. The aisles are too small and people stand in the way like oblivious sheep. People run ahead of me and get in line before I make it there. I pick the wrong line. Old people take too long finding their change. I don’t care where you are, these things are universal.

20

Sure, it’s different. It seems like common sense courtesy to me that others don’t want to see the disgusting fucking food you’re chewing in your mouth or have to hear you loudly smacking and chewing and slurping and shit when you eat, but every time I go out to eat with my girlfriend’s (Chinese) family, they don’t seem to think it’s a problem. Similarly with picking their noses in public. And don’t even get me started on the loogie-hawking on the sidewalk/street in Chinatown.