Because at that age, it’s indoctrination, not “giving them a chance”. They’ll likely believe what they are told without even thinking about it, much less questioning it. By the time they start thinking critically, it’ll be part of their basic worldview, and nearly unshakable - which is the real point of Sunday school IMHO; to turn out good little zombies who believe and do what they are told.
Is it indoctrination when parents tell students not to steal? Kids should have the right to decide for themselves, when they are of a age where they can weigh for themselves whether they find it appropriate to accept the laws of the land or reject them and become criminals.
To a christian it is much the same issue. As a parent, until the kid is old enough, you have the right to tell them what to do and make them do what is best for them. Maybe it is indoctrination, but parents “indoctrinate” kids on a wide range of issues and there’s nothing wrong with it. If you’re a Christian then it would actually be doing a disservice to your child not to make sure they follow the teachings of your church and Christ.
Wow. President Jimmy Carter has taught Sunday School. Many Sunday School teachers work very hard to try to teach children lessons. I highly doubt that 99% of the Sunday School teachers have any “indoctrination” plans in mind.
Sunday School is not a Hitler nor Communist youth program. If the child hates it, I’d talk to them.
Yes it’s indoctrination, but excusable. The laws against stealing and the harm done by stealing are objective fact, not an unprovable belief like religion.
Sometimes it’s wrong, sometimes it’s right. If a parent convinces a kid to walk up to an enemy of the faith with a hand grenade and pull the pin, is OK because Mom said so ? Of course not. Parents have rights over children, but they are limited rights.
I’m not talking about what they plan, but what it is; and I think you underestimate drastically how many people look at religious education as a method of making sure the kids have nothing but the proper beliefs and thoughts.
I am going to weigh in with a ‘no’. I have no problem with children learning about religion. I do not want them to learn religion itself. I fancy they are capable of making up their minds about it as adults.
Having said that there are probably UU Sunday Classes that would be okay - the ones that teach about various religions rather than any particular religion
Sunday School teacher checking in here, second and third graders.
I don’t, or wouldn’t, give a hoot why the parents send their kids. They think they’re getting free babysitting, or cultural imprinting? Fine by me.
I like my kids. They’re smart as whips, most of them, and it can be a challenge to keep their attention. But I value my own faith immensely, and welcome the chance to help impart it to the kids. It’s not all dreary lessons, we have stories, crafts, and last year my kids did a short play about Esther.
A kid from a family indifferent to religion or faith might eventually get it, and the young years are the place to start. One girl in my class today brought two girl friends with her today. I have no idea what, if any, faith background they come from. But we looked up our main Bible verse, put up a tree for Advent while I explained about that, and then made salt clay ornaments to put on the tree. The guests were a little shy, but I tried to be sure they were included, and put their names on our attendance poster, and they got to put a sticker up under today’s date. Maybe they will come back, maybe not, but I welcome the chance to give a positive picture of the church.
That chance is what I care about, not motives of the parents.
Did you actually go to Sunday school yourself? I did. Unshakable indoctrination? Scarcely. Let’s be real. It’s a few hours a week of arts and crafts and stories and as we got older, discussions. Some good ones, some boring. For a while I was my class atheist and a Rabbi’s favorite at the same time. He liked the fact that I was at thinking about the issues, even if I concluded differently than he did. Most of us spent most of our energy goofing off. (Now my teachers didn’t like me much, I was a bit remedial at Hebrew and the prayers.) Nah. Our core values are from our families (or in reaction to them.) Religious school can support those values or not, but it cannot replace them. Not in a few hours of goofing around a week.
I did go, and I was a good little book burning, praying-for-Jesus-to-come Christian until my teens.
Yes, it makes sense to me.
I actually struggled with this question in regards to my (then) two year-old, and those reasons (well, the “cultural background” part) was about the only way I could agree with the idea.
She’s now four and hasn’t been to a church since that post, except for weddings and funerals. However, Laura was a bit horrified a few months ago when Sophie pointed at a prominent picture of Jesus and asked “Who’s that?” I replied - “His name is ‘Jesus Christ’. Can you say that?”
And left it at that.
I’m an atheist, but I think I would send my kids to sunday school.
Because while I’m an atheist, I sometimes envy the value that my more “spiritual” friends can draw from having a religion. I wouldn’t want to deny that to my children based on my own prejudices. If they can find something to believe in, that will be a positive thing in their lives, then I’d want for them to have it.
Unfortunately, I think that religion makes more sense if you grow up believing it, so I think that in order for my kids to have a choice, they’d have to get their religion young. They can reject it later if they choose. But I feel like, if I were to raise them as atheists, that would permanently condition them never to be able to choose religion.
Kinda like piano lessons. You don’t know which kids are born Mozarts, but just in case your kid is one, you can’t go back in time to give them the lessons they should have gotten as children.
For most kids up to a certain age, that’s exactly what it is. Most people who turned away from religion as an adult viewed it as that and even those who didn’t usually can point to a spiritual epiphany when they “got it,” so to speak. I don’t see how social activity with people is “belittling” them.
It’s not often than Sunday School for 4th graders gets into the condemnation of homosexuality that I am aware of. Religion can have negative connotations to it, however Sunday School is usually quite benign.
Okay. I feel, and most parents feel, introducing children to religion is also an excusable form of indoctrination. In fact I wouldn’t use the word excusable, that implies it’s a “necessary evil” to some degree. I’d rather use the word “acceptable.”
Religion is part of culture and a parents job is to pass on their cultural norms and mores to their children. That is how societies exist in the first place.
Obviously someone who is very intolerant and hateful towards religion thinks religion has no place in any aspect of human existence. But luckily society and the law are firmly on the side of allowing parents this control over their children.
Indeed, and telling children to commit crimes is obviously limited.
Luckily the law is on my side when it comes to teaching children about your only faith. And that’s never going to change, and I hope you learn to deal with that without coming off like an extremist at some point.
That is because religion has subverted society ( and parents, for that matter ), turning them into tools for it’s propagation; much like a virus.
Then civilization will perish; I do not believe that a society with religion can survive the power of high technology indefinitely. Sooner or later, someone ( or many someones ) with the power to do so will do their best to kill or enslave us all ( which will likely result in the same thing ). It’s not like calls for the end of the world are uncommon from the religious; that’s why that Left Behind series was so popular. It tapped into the fundamentally irrational and malignant nature of religion. Neither are calls for forcing religion on people that rare.
Call me “intolerant” and “extremist” if you want, but it won’t be people like me who launch Armageddon; it will be the believers - after all, even the word is religious. It’s the religious who constantly call for death and tyranny, not me.
Everywhere you go in the world, the more power religion has, the more screwed up everything is. It ruins everything it touches.
And did your (now rejected) beliefs come from 2 to 3 hours per week of religious school alone? Or were you, to a greater extent, responding to your family culture? And would your strong antireligion stance be so strong if you did not have that to reject?
BTW “indoctrination” … my dictionary defines that as “to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments” so sure religious education certainly is that. Anytime we learn cultural norms we are indoctrinated. If you have kids and teach them your antireligious POV, that is indoctrination too. So?
The dangers of excessive religious power … I’m with you there. Zealots will often believe that only their version of truth is acceptable. And those individuals hungry for power can and do abuse religion for selfish ends. But in this sense knowledge is not power. That depends on the sort of religious education you send your kids to and again, what values we as parents impart.
No, it does not make sense, because Sunday school does not have a civilizing influence, does not give cultural background, and does not provide social moral lessons that cannot be gained in a superior form elsewhere. Like the home.
What, you want to dupe your kids? To save them the apparent horrible pain the atheist goes through from failing to have religion in their lives?
I’d think it’s much easier to choose religion than to abandon it. There are churches everywhere. Finding religion isn’t a hard thing if you want to find it.
what dalej42 said
(yes - nothing more to add)
Well, it wasn’t my family; I was far more fervent than them, while it lasted.
Probably; most of my attitude on the subject comes from historical and world events involving religion, not personal experience. That’s what deconverted me in fact; I read to much and too widely not to learn about the evils of religion.
More or less true, which is one reason I don’t have children. Still, like circus electrique said religion is around every corner; the idea that atheism is anything but evil is harder to find.
Do you have any evidence of how many do, or are we expected to take it on faith?
Regards,
Shodan
I went to Hebrew school Sunday morning and two days a week after school for five years. In our temple, those who attended got the good Saturday morning bar mitzvah slots. I learned Hebrew (badly, but that was my fault) and “history”. I even finished the five year session after my bar mitzvah. My best friend went also.
I’d say that you learn a very edited bit of the Bible. I didn’t really get it until I read it on my own in high school (and promptly became an atheist.)
I never sent my kids, though they did go to some social clubs at churches with their friends, which tried, and failed, to indoctrinate them. I would have let them go if they had wanted to, since refusing just makes it more attractive. I’d rather they had the attitude that I’m happy for them to learn all about religion, since viewed rationally it makes no sense. It’s worked for us.
What lissenersaid.
I would like to add some qualifiers and some additional perspective.
The qualifier is what is being taught and who is teaching it. I wouldn’t send my kids to a group of snake handlers who’s goal in life is to speak in tongues. On the flip side, even if I wasn’t a believer there is a lot to be learned by the lessons Jesus taught. If you look at His lectures they are great examples of how people should treat each other and in many cases fly in the face of ritualized religion.
With that said, I was brought up in a Catholic school and received a fabulous education from the Nuns who taught there. They were well educated and simply represented the best of humanity. Religion class was anything but bible thumping. I learned about other religions and their belief systems as well as what was expected of me as a Christian (a drawn out version of what-would-Jesus-do). In fact, it was a Nun who told my ailing mother that my failure to attend church regularly was not as important (to my soul) as how I conducted my life.
I wouldn’t trade that education for any amount of money.