I have seen answers ranging from “yes it does” to “only the outdated form of materialism”.
It seems like many wooish sites are trying to use quantum mechanics to advance their own doctrines, but I’m not sure about that.
All I really know is that quantum mechanics is complicated but does it disprove materialism?
This is pretty obviously not a factual question. Moved to Great Debates.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
Most of the people who say this seem to know nothing about quantum mechanics except that it is “spooky.” It kind of goes brain -> quantum mechanics -> oogoa booga -> soul.
Now it is true that the brain works using quantum mechanics.
But so do rocks.
As far as I understand it, the arguments summarise to something like:
Materialism implies determinism, which negates any possibility of the (hard to define) religious concept of ‘free will’.
Quantum mechanics undermines the notion of predictable or repeatable determinism, however, I don’t think that necessarily implies that free will is possible, or that materialism itself is false.
“Quantum anything” is a big favourite in pseudoscience, simply because it’s something very few people are able to question.
If I said something misleading about thermodynamics or electricity, chances are I would be corrected quickly, probably by several people. But there’s such a perception of “quantum-land” as a mysterious place, that its name has become a dumping ground for ridiculous ideas.
One impact is that we have had to define things like “matter” more broadly than previously. But in fact we’ve had to do that several times, so if expanding the definition of matter kills Materialism, then it was dead before QM.
I’m with you. I’ve tried deep breathing and quiet meditation for 20 minutes a day but all I can think about is shopping for all the things.
In any question like this, one must define all of the terms. Quantum mechanics is well-defined and understood, so that’s no problem. But what’s your definition of “materialism”? And if you’re going to be bringing in “determinism” and “free will”, then you’d better define those, too.
The big problem with folks making statements like this is that they usually think that they understand “materialism”, “determinism”, and “free will”, but that quantum mechanics is some squishy mystical thing that can mean whatever people want it to mean. But the reality is exactly the opposite.
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Ability
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Adventure
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Artistry
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Awe
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Belief
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Chaos
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Comfort
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Communication
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Consideration
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Crime
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Culture
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Customer service
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Death
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Deceit
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Defeat
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Democracy
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Dexterity
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Dictatorship
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Disquiet
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Disturbance
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Dreams
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Energy
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Enhancement
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Failure
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Faith
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Faithfulness
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Faithlessness
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Favoritism
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Forgiveness
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Fragility
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Frailty
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Freedom
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Gossip
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Grace
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Hearsay
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Homelessness
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Hurt
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Idea
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Idiosyncrasy
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Imagination
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Impression
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Improvement
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Inflation
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Information
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Justice
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Knowledge
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Laughter
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Law
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Liberty
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Life
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Loss
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Luck
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Luxury
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Memory
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Mercy
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Motivation
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Movement
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Need
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Omen
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Opinion
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Opportunism
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Opportunity
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Parenthood
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Patriotism
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Peace
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Peculiarity
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Poverty
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Principle
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Reality
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Redemption
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Refreshment
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Riches
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Rumor
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Service
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Shock
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Skill
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Slavery
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Sleep
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Sparkle
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Speculation
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Speed
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Strictness
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Submission
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Success
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Thought
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Thrill
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Truth
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Unemployment
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Unreality
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Victory
Does quantum mechanics debunk … Wealth
Discuss.
You’re being a jerk. Knock it off.
[/moderating]
It’s not obvious to me. I thought the OP was asking about what Quantum Mechanics actually claims/teaches, and whether or not it’s compatible with a materialistic view of the universe.
It’s the kind of question that I would have thought someone with a sufficient understanding of quantum mechanics could provide a factual answer to.
Bone got here just before me, Xap. But I’ll back him up and say that you should refrain from that level of obnoxiousness in the future.
Hell, even the real theoreticians have trouble wrapping their minds around QM and point to the math instead. I remember a YouTube video of some graduate student talking about an esoteric QM point. At the end among his dedications he said, “And I’d like to thank Professor <somebody> for helping me understand as well as anybody can understand this stuff.”
Materialism, the way it’s usually understood, is a particular kind of monism (i.e. the doctrine that there is only one ‘fundamental’ substance, as opposed to, e.g., Cartesian dualism, Popper’s three worlds, and other kinds of pluralism). As such, it holds that matter is fundamental, and things like mind, abstracts, concepts, and so on, are ultimately derived. Materialism is opposed to other kinds of monism, like idealism, the view that all that there is, is ultimately mental in nature, or neutral monism, which posits a fundamental substance that is neither material nor mental in nature (and hence, ‘neutral’), and which gives rise to both mental and material properties.
Quantum mechanics is a physical theory. The most popular view is that physical theories are substantially theories of matter, of real stuff out there, and that they’re true because their claims about the stuff out there obtain, at least in an approximate way (scientific realism). Consequently, quantum mechanics may elucidate the nature of matter, but can’t possibly argue against materialism.
This view may be challenged. One may for instance hold that physical theories are not substantially true about the world (scientific antirealism); but then, QM can’t really tell us anything about materialism either, as its truth conditions don’t lie with what the world is ultimately like.
One may also hold that while quantum mechanics is a correct theory of matter, that’s not all there is—although issues like the causal closure of the physical and the question of how different substances could interact make this a difficult to defend position, in my opinion.
So in the end, quantum mechanics is perfectly consistent with materialism; and on the opposite end, one can hold non-materialist views and still be convinced of the truth of quantum mechanics.
So the question really just betrays a mistaken view of the purview of scientific theory: while it is undoubtedly possible to take our best current theories as guiding principles in the creation of metaphysical worldviews, and while they may even impose constraints on such constructions, ultimately, metaphysical questions are not answered by physical theory.
Not to go too deep into the weeds, of course quantum mechanics is compatible with materialism (or rather, the more general notion of physicalism for which I believe “materialism” is often used as synonym). Materialism supposes that the material world is all there is, and there’s no extra spiritual or subjective world of souls or “life forces” or anything like that. The quantum world is part of the material world the same as rocks and horses. That causation works differently at subatomic scales than we previously understood based on larger objects is really besides the point.
That said, I believe there is a subjective world in our minds, and that’s the world we creatures who experience things actually live in. Reality is filtered through our senses and we all comprehend that reality differently. In my mind, a fictional story about a talking frog and grasshopper preparing for winter is no less real than a thoroughly cited non-fiction account of animals in Africa doing the same thing. Science is important and necessary and tells us what there is to know about the external reality “out there” so that we can improve our lives and our understanding of our place in the universe. But it can’t tell us much about the thoughts and experiences of our own minds, which is after all where most living is actually done. Quantum mechanics, as important as the field is, is kind of irrelevant to the day-to-day life of the mind. So quantum mechanics doesn’t debunk mind-body dualism, either.
No, I’da remembered that name, I’m sure.
I agree and disagree. Science can tell us a lot, maybe absolutely everything or maybe not, about the thoughts and experiences in our minds. But maybe the way it tells us is not a way that makes sense according to those very thoughts and experiences.
In other words, maybe learning about our own minds is (for us) one of the most counterintuitive things in the world.
Which leads to the phrase about QM: “shut up and calculate.”