Does she like me? Any subtle ways to tell?

[ZipperJJ]

@fimy

You can’t eliminate women who have boyfriends as potential future SOs . Most commonly desirable women (and men for that matter) have boyfriends most of the time. You’d be reducing your pool tremendously.

@fimy

She also said she was going to show it to her boyfriend. I suppose I should be pleased to know he will feel the pangs of jealousy and possibly hate my guts but I derive no pleasure from the distress of others. I don’t mind if he realizes I have a crush on her. It’d be interesting to see if he tells her something about it.

Now you’re just creepy.

[fimy]

Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 271
Location: Chicago

@anamnesis

And here I thought this thread might actually be about what women like in a man. If anything, it’s about what women hate in a man, unless you’re the kind of deceptive, manipulative, attention-seeking sort of girl this whole scenario always revolves around. They love to prey on the men who don’t seem to know any better, or better still, the men who do know better but still indulge them anyway for some particularly inward, self-flagellating reason. You reallly haven’t read anything any of the people have said in this thread, fimy. Yes, you read the words, you responded to the words (often parsed individually in a sentence by sentence format) and yet the brick that is the advice you’re being given still hasn’t hit you in the head hard enough. I could name names of the folks who’ve made some particularly good posts here, but it’d be a long list because virtually everyone agrees that you’re wrapped up in a textbook case of top shelf dysfunction at your emotional and financial expense. The most dysfunctional thing about it in particular is that you already seem to be aware of this fact, and still indulge it. Nobody’s patting you on the back for wanting to “see this through to it’s inevitable conclusion”. It’s no big feat to want closure. It’s a big feat to act on getting that closure, and you’re still spinning your wheels. This sort of passive/depressive/masochistic/woe-is-me behavior is the kind of thing that girls like Wanda love to prey upon because it means free shit for them, whether it be bikinis, chocolates, dinner, or even the cheap five minute thrill that the ego boost gives her. She’s in the driver’s seat and she’s taking you for a ride to somewhere that even she doesn’t know, and you’re in the passenger seat, perhaps hoping she does. Then again, maybe you’re not. It’s kind of hard to tell what you’re thinking because you come back with strawman responses which openly acknowledge how pointlessly depressing this situation is, and that you’re content to prolong it. If you were doing this as some kind of big psychological expirement, it might at least make sense.

Now, now. I said before you shouldn’t take all this too seriously. I knew from the get go that my chances were slim to none so there was not much disappointment. As far as the gifts and dinners go, I assure you they had little pecuniary impact. She does usually pay for her half of dinner, the chocolates were $20 (xmas), $15 (V-day) and $2.50 (wholefood market) and the bikini was TOTALLY worth it. All in all, I’ve honestly not spent much more on her than I would’ve a male friend.

The truth is that I do agree with most of the posts here. However, she’s still a friend, at least for the time being. And as a friend, she hasn’t done anything to screw me over. So I will continue hanging out with her, though I probably should do it with less frequency. What I am doing is postponing the confession. Until she comes back. I Don’t have a good excuse for that, I’m just procrastinating an unpleasant task. For whatever reason, rejection from people that know me, as opposed to perfect strangers, is akin to be judged a failure." I know you and you’re just not good enough. You fail at life. Game over!" and then there is the ego bruising: “This guy here is better than you. Suck on it.”. Yes, I know it’s stupid and irrational, but only on the surface. Deep down, i am perfectly stupid and irrational. I will do it though, I will. Very soon!

You’ve clearly got a decent head on your shoulders, but I have to wonder how well it’s working after you return to this thread (after everyone having given you some really good advice about severing the notion that you’ll indulge her bullshit one minute longer) and openly admit to having bought this girl more crap, in this case, chocolates. I wonder if I even need to ask who paid for dinner. The people who are telling you these things are doing so because they’ve been through it, at least to some degree, or know someone who has. If there’s something we don’t know, you have only yourself to blame for not telling us, but I don’t think there’s much more light to shed on her or your standing with her. You’ve gone into far too much detail as it is by responding to virtually every post defensively, sentence by sentence, which only serves to reinforce what we’re all calling you on from the beginning. Even assuming it wasn’t true, you convey a sense of having far too much time on your hands, enough at least to go into trivial details that only serve to dissect a situation that doesn’t need to be dissected. You cannot buy a woman’s affection, and these he-said-she-said exchanges about who got whose call first and who didn’t call who back later should be your first and only reason to lose her name, her number, and any reason you had for even being interested in her in the first place. If this was just about sex, then you should have just made it about sex. To respond to what this was all originally about in the first place, the signs all indicate that she liked you and she was testing to see if you had enough of a spine to go and fuck her brains out, consequences be damned. To her and everyone else here, it appears that you do not. Don’t sweat it, there will be other chances. Where one door closes, two more open. As you’ve said here, it is a learning experience, but I think you have more to learn from the advice in this thread than you do from any experiences with this girl.
In the future, put girls like this on the back burner while you do what others have reccommended here, and if you play your cards right, the roles will be reversed. If she’s still around by then, and judging from her clearly manipulative/disturbed/unbalanced nature, she’ll be the one pursuing you instead. Not that I would consider that a good thing based on what we know of her. But hey, if sex with the crazy girl is what you want, it doesn’t take a whole lot of reverse psychology to get it.

Responding to almost every post is just something I tend to do, regardless of topic. Can’t disagree with anything else you said, I must admit.

I just stumbled upon this thread, and I would have to wave my arms vigorously and point to anamnesis’s post above. At the beginning of the thread, I thought there was some hope – the Valentine’s comment and the night alone with some wine threw up a huge glowy Come Hither! sign, but I’m afraid you’ve let that opportunity pass, and there won’t be another. Had it ended there, I would have told you that it’s unfortunate, but now you know better for next time. However, the more I read as your predicament evolves, the more I’m inclined to think that this girl – and girl is all she be, as a grown woman would not exhibit such inconsiderate behavior (by my definition of “woman,” anyway) – is far far less than what you perceive of her. Sure, she’s smart, attractive, and funny, but she’s also passive-agressive, manipulative, and completely uninterested in treating you with anything close to the decency that you deserve (whether she consciously knows it or not). Even if she were to call you up at this very moment, profess her undying love for you, and inform you that she were on her way over to jump your bones, though the sex may be delicious for a time, the relationship would not be a rewarding one for you. Oh wait, that’s right, she never calls (unless threatened with the imminent loss of your goodwill – that doesn’t count).

You wanted a noninvasive test to gauge her feelings for you – you’ve had it all along. Stop looking at what she does and look at what she doesn’t do. Things like, well, calling you, for example. Or reciprocating thoughtful gestures. At best, she’s really flaky and inconsiderate. At worst, she’s playing you, bigtime. Probably somewhere in-between, and subconsciously – but even if it’s subconscious, it’s still no excuse. The way I see it, the only “win” you have in this situation is to get over her as quickly as possible and move on with your social life. Perhaps retain her as a friend – since obviously you enjoy her company and have fun with her – but anything more intimate than that, you are wading through an emotional minefield (with the immasculating Bouncing Betty mines, no less).

I’ve been to this place before, as have many of these other posters. All have given you sound advice (on which you seem to not have the chutzpah to follow-through). However, I recognize that this is a learning experience for you, and sometimes we just have to make mistakes on our own and learn our own lessons, regardless of all the best counsel in the world. In fact, were I in your shoes (or rather I should say, when I was in your shoes) with that relative inexperience, I would probably discard all but the most passive of advice and engage in the same self-flagellation anyway, just to learn it myself, just once. However, should this situation arise again with some other crazy girl (you’d be surprised by how abundant they are!), I should hope that you’d be wise enough to not follow this same progression of events.

At any rate, I wish you the best, no matter how it turns out.

Tchuss!

You know, maybe the problem is that I’m getting way too much good advice. It’s hard to let go of that “but my case is special!” feeling and accept my commonality. I have no choice but to do so with such a unified deluge of coherent, convincing arguments and thus, I resent the good advice on a certain level. Plus, bad advice is always so much more entertaining. I wish I’d get more of that. Maybe I’d even follow some of it and learn my lesson the hard way.
Do know, however, that I do not discard the advice given to me. I have eyes and a brain and I am forced to agree that I should speak my piece then get a life. Knowing the path and walking it are two very different things however. I’m trying to get my lazy ass moving, one inch at a time.
By the way, speaking of overanalyzing trivial details, here are a couple of pictures of her during that Friday night. The bottle of wine is there too. She’s not playing Xbox, she’s controlling the media player and picking songs to play.

@ZipperJJ

Now you’re just creepy.

Umm, why? I’ve been very careful not to mention the stalking or the hair collection I keep in my closet.

[Slithy_Tove]

@ChuckForbin

Dude
You need some straight talk.
I’ll get flamed for this but I’ll take the hit for your sake.

Can old, ugly guys like me invite flaming, too? Or at least being disdainfully ignored?

fimy,there’s just something about those photos you took of her: you’re in love with this woman. That’s just the way it is, and you and she and us dopers can play around with this fact rationally or crazily or selfishly or even dangerously, but it won’t make any difference. This has taken hold of you and it will play itself out to its own conclusion.

I wish I could advise you to make some “sanity rules” that you’d vow never to break while this has hold of you, but chances are you’d break them in the name of love. All I can do is wish you good luck.

[ZipperJJ]

@fimy

@ZipperJJ

Now you’re just creepy.

Umm, why? I’ve been very careful not to mention the stalking or the hair collection I keep in my closet.

If all people are fair game who already have a boyfriend or girlfriend, what does having a boyfriend or girlfriend mean to you?

How would you feel if you got this girl to be your girlfriend and other dudes actively sought her out to be their girlfriend while you were her boyfriend? How would that make you feel? Would you be all “oh well I guess I concede” if some guy stole her from you or would you cry like a baby?

Seems to me now that your mission is to either save her (from the boyfriend…nay, fiancee) or show what a big man you are by stealing another guy’s girl.

She’s attached. If she’s your friend, show some respect to her and her fiancee by getting over her.

[anamnesis]

So this is sort of a big psychological experiment then. She’s cute, but she’s crazy. I’ve been through plenty of those. Happens a lot. There’s a lot of them out there, as Headrush said. I still can’t help but wonder why you’re really going through all the trouble outside of some cathartic need to purge yourself of the situation in a very drawn out way. I mean, what’s the real outcome you’d like to have? I personally don’t think from everything that’s been said about her that she’ll take such a gesture in a positive way and it will only serve to put a strain on any friendship. My guess [hope] is that you aren’t a doormat, but you still let her run the show, and that needs to change. You may still have a chance in the future but I would not encourage it with her in particular, and certainly not with your current approach. She’s attached, and faithful to him or not, it’s still the wrong thing to do. Slithy is right, and it’s a shame because you shouldn’t be setting your sights on unavailable targets even if you suspect them to be crazy enough to be unfaithful. If she’s that much of a loose cannon, imagine how her boyfriend might be if he finds out. You say (in a creepy way, I concur) that you don’t mind her boyfriend knowing you have a thing for her. You may not find it creepy, and I understand your intentions are benign, but I assure you that others do not see it this way. I suggest you let this situation take a backseat to improving your approach with other women and to let her see you in other social situations with them, then watch her reaction. Cowboy up and assert yourself and let her see you doing it.

Some of my opinions on things you need to get handled:

• Stop trying to impress women and start expecting them to impress you. I can’t stress this enough in cases such as this.
• Stop being nice to her, but don’t be an asshole either.
• Stop spending money on her. For anything. Starting right now. As a matter of fact, insist (perhaps playfully) that she pays for you instead.
• Stop making yourself available to her when she decides she wants attention, even when you don’t have other plans.
• Read the Nice Guys threads that grayhairedmomma was referring to earlier. Read them multiple times.
• Get some books on seduction. Just search the keyword on Amazon or even Google it. There are a lot of resources out there. I suggest it not for the seduction aspect as much as reinforcing the psychology behind it. Seriously. They’re aimed at people who want/need to reframe their approach to these situations.

Don’t take these suggestions as criticism so much as advice on how to make things more fun for you, and more fun for the women you talk to, and by that I mean women other than Wanda. The first step to improving the situation is admitting that you need to get it handled, which I think you’ve already done. This is one of those things where only practice can produce results and you need to just get out there and get rejected to build up your exposure to it. You say you haven’t been rejected before and while I can’t say I’m surprised, I also wonder how many attempts you’ve made to not have received a single rejection in your life. I’m sure everyone here giving advice has been rejected a number of times throughout life, whether personally or professionally. You need to just get out there and get rejected to learn what you are doing wrong and build on it. Rejection is not failure, it is growth. Take it and use it, don’t let it use you.

[fimy]

@Slithy Tove

Can old, ugly guys like me invite flaming, too? Or at least being disdainfully ignored?

fimy,there’s just something about those photos you took of her: you’re in love with this woman. That’s just the way it is, and you and she and us dopers can play around with this fact rationally or crazily or selfishly or even dangerously, but it won’t make any difference. This has taken hold of you and it will play itself out to its own conclusion.

I wish I could advise you to make some “sanity rules” that you’d vow never to break while this has hold of you, but chances are you’d break them in the name of love. All I can do is wish you good luck.

Nothing special about the pictures I took, I assure you. I’m not in love with her. Just a good ol’ crush. And that’s enough…

If all people are fair game who already have a boyfriend or girlfriend, what does having a boyfriend or girlfriend mean to you?

How would you feel if you got this girl to be your girlfriend and other dudes actively sought her out to be their girlfriend while you were her boyfriend? How would that make you feel? Would you be all “oh well I guess I concede” if some guy stole her from you or would you cry like a baby?

Seems to me now that your mission is to either save her (from the boyfriend…nay, fiancee) or show what a big man you are by stealing another guy’s girl.

She’s attached. If she’s your friend, show some respect to her and her fiancee by getting over her.

You know what they say. All is fair in love and war.

First, nobody can “steal” anybody. it’s either consensual or sexual assault. it’s fine by me to declare your feelings to my gf if you don’t know me. The respect part would be not surprise kiss her or touch her in an inappropriate fashion and to take no for an answer but it’s really respect towards her, not towards me.

Of course, if you’re a friend of mine, the rules are very different.

If my gf was “stolen” from me, as you say, I’d take it very badly for sure but I’d blame her much more than i’d blame the other guy. I can RELATE to the other guy.
She clearly didn’t love me as much as I need so better break it sooner rather than later.

For the record, I’ve never stolen anybody from anybody else. my 2 exes were both as single as they come. But I’d do it in a heartbeat if I had the chance and genuinely liked the girl.

to anamnesis:

Oh, and I wouldn’t want her to cheat on him. I’d want her to break up. I don’t share women.

When it comes to the BF, I wouldn’t even want him to know I exist. She’s the one who tells/shows him everything. And well, bikini + story where I have sex with her at the end = unsympathetic BF.

[Kent_Clark]

Fimy, it seems to me you’re enjoying playing the martyr just a bit too much. You don’t want to have a serious talk with this young woman – or on this message board – about your future, you just want to talk about having the talk.

You want to take what should be a serious exploration of your and her feelings and turn it into clever parsing of sentences and witty banter.

In short, your’re milking the situation for everything you can get out of it. Sympathy, encouragement, whatever a poster gives you, you’ll take it.

Now, here’s my advice. Either have a real, genuine discussion with the girl (and risk getting your heart ripped out of your chest and stepped on - but hey, no risk, no reward) or resign yourself to being her pet boy and find a new topic to talk about.

You’ve talked the talk. Now walk the walk.

[fimy]

@kunilou

Fimy, it seems to me you’re enjoying playing the martyr just a bit too much. You don’t want to have a serious talk with this young woman – or on this message board – about your future, you just want to talk about having the talk.

You want to take what should be a serious exploration of your and her feelings and turn it into clever parsing of sentences and witty banter.

In short, your’re milking the situation for everything you can get out of it. Sympathy, encouragement, whatever a poster gives you, you’ll take it.

Now, here’s my advice. Either have a real, genuine discussion with the girl (and risk getting your heart ripped out of your chest and stepped on - but hey, no risk, no reward) or resign yourself to being her pet boy and find a new topic to talk about.

You’ve talked the talk. Now walk the walk.

Enjoying being a martyr? Milking the situation? Umm…what?

I appreciate the time and effort people put into giving me advice (which I did not force them to do, please remember that), otherwise, I do not derive any particular enjoyment from them. Most of them are more akin to cold showers, salutary but a bit unpleasant.

The girl is in Puerto Rico for a week, remember? Won’t be back until Sunday. I can’t talk to her even if I want to.

I’ll walk the walk, have patience.

[John_Carter_of_Mars]

@fimy

here are a couple of pictures of her during that Friday night.

Um, yeah. Very cute. Why didn’t you try to hit it when you had a chance? You want her for a lover, not a friend. Make your move and if you strike out, nothin’s been lost. The very worst that can happen is that you’ll have this issue resolved and you can move on. There’s a chance you’ll grab the brass ring. Go for it.

@ZipperJJ

If all people are fair game who already have a boyfriend or girlfriend, what does having a boyfriend or girlfriend mean to you?

To me, it means my girlfriend (wife) is supposed to say “no”, just like I’m supposed to say “no”. The fact that someone has an SO doesn’t place an obligation on a third party to not look for opportunities.
It’s up to the committed person to be faithful, not to others to avoid hitting on said committed person.

[phungi]

After looking at the pictures:

1. When eating nuts from a can, completely removing the pull-top lid first.

2. Don’t hang with smokers. If you smoke, quit.

3. I now understand the bikini gift.

I hope you join after the Guest period runs out.

[fimy]

@John Carter of Mars

Um, yeah. Very cute. Why didn’t you try to hit it when you had a chance? You want her for a lover, not a friend.

The two needn’t be mutually exclusive. I didn’t try anything because I wasn’t getting any positive signals from her.

Make your move and if you strike out, nothin’s been lost. The very worst that can happen is that you’ll have this issue resolved and you can move on. There’s a chance you’ll grab the brass ring. Go for it.

Will do.
To phungi

1- You’re right. I unconsciously think that if I leave it on, it’ll help keep the nuts fresher. That doesn’t make any sense at all. You may laugh at me now.

2- I did quit smoking. She only smokes once every wek or two, usually when drinking. I did advise her to quit but I’m not her father so I won’t keep nagging her.

3- Well, keep in mind she already wore a bikini before my gift. It really was just a coincidence that it was something she mentionned wanting. A happy coincidence though. She does look nice in red.

I will stay and participate in this board for the forseeable future. Thanks for the vote of confidence.