Does the free market really work?

It’s not that people value being entertained than they value their health or education. It’s that a small number of entertainers with highly specialized skills are required to entertain millions while millions of people are required to run our health care or education infrastructure.

And any given teacher or doctor only operates in a tiny market which they have zero value outside of. A world-class entertainer has value to people all over the world.

And I get so sick of the whole “teachers are magical and should be more valued in society” crap. Half my teachers were idiots who were essentially glorified babysitters. It’s just a job. Anyone not in a job you think you should be paid more for doing?

Let me say at the outset that it’s not that I don’t welcome debate but when you can only type 5 wpm it becomes difficult to give lengthy responses, I don’t intend to come off as gruff.

Ruminator

I don’t know why we don’t pay baby sitters more, but in attempting to answer you, I really thought back to see how my wife and I handled our kids. With the older two it was easy. We didn’t pay anyone. Just starting out didn’t have much money so going out wasn’t a frequent option. When childcare was required grandma and close friends were called.

When we had our last child, years later, we were in a much better financial situation. We built an apartment in our home and moved my wife’s aunt in with us because both of us were working. When we used sitters then, her aunt was there to supervise. If she went out, we didn’t.

What I’m saying is that it’s not really a dollar question. If you have children you’ll find that out. We were lucky enough to have family and friends. We couldn’t afford to pay them anywhere near what they were “worth.”

Xtisme

Maybe it’s the anti-depressants that give me that “rosy” outlook. You seem to think everything has improved over the years.

Do we have more stuff? Sure but at what price? It sure is nice that you can buy anything 24/7. On the other hand it was kind of nice when stores were only open 6 days a week and you spent time with family.

It’s lovely that you can communicate with someone over the internet. On the other hand you lose that whole civility thing. Not important to you but it is to some.

Civil discussion was better when you had to say something to a human rather than a screen name.

Msmith537

Are there others who should be paid more? Absolutely. Have a real health crisis and then tell me that a baseball player is worth more than a nurse or someone who has to change your bedpan.

Except you still don’t get that the average baseball fan’s contribution to Ken Griffey’s salary is very very small. And his contribution to the salary of the nurse’s aide who changes his bedpan, and the nurse who administers his medication, and the doctor who performs his surgery, is very large. If you want to see a baseball game you turn on the TV, or buy a ticket. The ticket to the game costs a few dollars. A major health crisis will cost tens of thousands, or more.

Just because a few baseball stars make millions of dollars doesn’t mean we value baseball more than health care. We spend a lot less on baseball than we do on health care. That’s a fact. It’s just that what little we do spend on baseball isn’t spread evenly. Most baseball players make nothing, they play for free. A very small number of baseball players are paid enough that they don’t have to work at another job during baseball season. An even smaller number of baseball players have a really good salary. And an even smaller number of baseball players make millions.

Your problem is that you think like an employee. You think that work has value because it’s work. But that’s not why employees get paid. Employees get paid because the employer has some tasks that have to be done, and they have no other choice but to pay somebody to do them.

Stop imagining what you think an employee should be worth, and start thinking about what value that employee generates for the employer. Is water more important than diamonds? Sure, if you’re dying of thirst in the desert you’d trade a sackful of diamonds for a drink of water. So why do diamonds cost thousands of dollars, while tap water costs less than a penny a gallon? If you can understand why tap water doesn’t cost thousands of dollars a gallon, despite being absolutely essential to life, you’ll understand why a teacher makes $40,000 a year while some singer you never heard of makes millions.

Again, that singer isn’t an employee, he’s a businessman. He makes money depending on the number of tickets he sells, the CDs and mp3s he sells, the merchandise he sells, and so on. If he sells a million CDs, and gets $1 per CD (in reality the typical musician gets much less than $1 per CD), then how can you say he doesn’t deserve a million dollars? Because I guarantee that if a teacher could figure out a way to teach a million kids, that teacher would be a millionaire too.

If you imagine a teacher as a shopkeeper, selling his services to whatever customers drop in, you can easily see that a teacher’s work can’t scale up the same way as musician’s work can. A musician can record a song in one day, and that song can be sold once, twice, ten times, a thousand times, or a million times. A teacher can teach a limited number of kids a day. A teacher who teaches twenty kids a day can be compared to a musician who performs for twenty people a day. Neither is going to become a millionaire. But I can guarantee you that people pay a lot more for teachers to teach their kids than they do for musicians to entertain their kids.

shrug It was implicit in your statement.

Well, aside from all the starvation, abject poverty, disease, warfare, religious persecution, enslavement, etc etc (etc…etc), I suppose things WERE a lot nicer way back when. Well, if we discount all the other bad stuff too…certainly there was a lot more time to spend watching ones family die horribly, but at least they could do it together!

I’ve been around long before there was an internet, and I was equally uncivil then as well…at least to people who refuse to even attempt to debate a point, and instead simply assert things which it’s clear they have no idea what they are talking about.

You COULD learn a lot on this board, and even in this particular thread…but to do so you need to open your mind a bit, and toss out some of your preconceptions. Some nice perspective would be good as well.

-XT

I have heard people say this as if we would all still be living in caves if it weren’t for the free market. We have progressed as a race because of our intelligence, not because of the free market. The free market creates plenty of wealth but how does it allocate that welath? What sort of behaviour does it encourage? Shouldn’t we try and control the free market so that we can benefit from its creative ability without letting it control our lives?

Well at least we can agree you’re uncivil.

“Well, aside from all the starvation, abject poverty, disease, warfare, religious persecution, enslavement, etc”

Gee back then we weren’t fighting two wars, there was religious persecution as there is today, there was generally economic stability with a vibrant middle class, there was world poverty as there is today.

You could even afford to go see a doctor, the same day too, no long waits for appointments, and his office didn’t look like an add campaign for Viagra, Lunestra and other fine drugs. Sure things have advanced but you can’t just say it was due solely to free markets.

And maybe I could learn something here but that teacher sure isn’t you.

Free market economics has been around since at least 200 B.C. when the merchant classes in China gained enough political influence to institute some laissez faire policies. And yet some of China’s greatest and most lasting contributions to man were made before or after that period.

Indeed aren’t many of the technological innovations of the past couple of centuries based on scince that was bankrolled by the government? Wasn’t the entire railroad industry possible only because of government largesse?

The examples are endless. I think that when people object to the “free market” they aren’t objecting to the concepts of supply and demand. I think they are objecting to the idea the whatever the free market would dictate is what is good for liiving breathing human beings.

And it’s undoubtedly an opinion shared by many others as well…

Back when, exactly? Religious persecution? Like burning at the stake? Religious wars of extermination? When was there economic stability and a vibrant middle class? Those are all modern constructs…hell, ‘middle class’ itself is a fairly recent creation, and there was NEVER such a large ‘middle class’ as there is today in all of history. Poverty? Don’t be silly…to poor today live better than some elite did in times gone by. REAL poverty is starvation and privation even those in Africa today would pale at. It’s generations of having to put excess children out on a hill side somewhere because you simply can’t feed them, it’s dieing before you are 30 (if you are lucky).

You seriously have no concept of the difference between today and how things were in the past. Even in the good old USA one doesn’t even have to go back a century before seeing what real poverty and privation was. As to the Europeans…hell, their lives today are so far beyond what they had even a century ago it’s hard to even comprehend. And all of it is due to that supposedly broken and worthless thing you ignorantly dismiss in your OP…dismiss without even trying to understand what it even is or how it even works.

Is it perfect? Hell no…nothing humans do is perfect. To paraphrase, it’s the worst possible economic system…except for all the others.

When was this magical time you have in your head? Who were these people who could afford to see a doctor (at all, let alone the same day)? The very rich? The upper ‘middle class’? And what was their life expectancy in this dream time? 40? 50? Dare I say…60? Doubtful, but do you know?

Sure I can. I can look at when market economic first started to take hold, and then I can look at things like the rise in the quality of life, life expectancy, etc…and I can pretty categorically say that, if not solely due to market economics, that market economics had the single biggest impact on those things. One has but to look at the how nearly every prosperous country on earth has some form of market based economics these days, even those who were formerly Communist or Socialist demand economies in the past.

No, you couldn’t learn anything, and no, I’m certainly not the teacher. I’m impatient with your level of militant ignorance, and, frankly, I’m no expert on this subject. There ARE people here you COULD learn from…but you won’t. Will you?

-XT

Damuri Ajashi

Finally a little intelligent balance to this one sided harangue, thank you for joining in!

XT in my lifetime, 40, years ago. And my family was lower middle class, right before medicine became big business. It was back in the days when a doctor would ask, “What’s wrong?” before he asked, “How are you going to pay?”

And exactly when did these free markets take hold? China and Russia are free markets? Has anyone told them yet?

“I’m impatient with your level of militant ignorance,”

If your impatient with ignorance better avoid mirrors

I’ll learn if you will.

The reason doctors used to make housecalls 60 years ago, and lower-middle-class families could pay for medical care out of pocket, was that doctors couldn’t do much. They could set a bone, or stitch up a wound, or deliver a baby, or amputate a leg, or lance a boil, or give out opiates. But if you had cancer, the doctor’s job was to tell you to make sure your will was up to date, not to treat you. Medical care was inexpensive because for most illnesses there were no treatments–either the patient would get better on his own, or the patient would get worse, and the doctor’s main job was to advise the patient on the likely course of the disease.

And those old-timey doctors sure didn’t get paid much either. So how does that jibe with your anti-free-market rant that doctors are underpaid? Doctors are paid a lot better nowadays.

And why are you complaining that medical care costs too much nowadays? I thought you complained earlier that we don’t pay enough for medical care, because doctors don’t make as much as movie stars? So which is it–do we pay to much for medical care, or too little? If you want doctors to make more money than movie stars, you’ll have to pay movie star prices every time you visit the doctor.

Or is the problem not that doctors make to little, but that movie stars make too much? Well, what’s your solution? Why should a lead actor in a movie seen by 1000 people make the same money as a lead actor in a movie seen by 1,000,000 people? Doesn’t it seem fair that the second actor should make 1000 times what the first actor makes? Or if one teacher teaches one child to read, and another teacher teaches 20 children to read, which should be paid more? If Thag makes a basket and trades it for one chicken, how is it unfair for Tor to make 20 baskets and trade them for 20 chickens? Thag got one chicken for his work, yet Tor got 20! Is that fair?

40 years? THAT is your long ago golden age? Well, even assuming this were true (and again, for who? Certainly 40 years ago I couldn’t just walk into see a doctor like you describe…but then, I was a bit below ‘lower middle class’, so I guess that’s ok), surly you can see that, A) Medicine has advanced to a huge degree since then (which, you know, costs money), and B) 40 years ago the US was still a market economy, which tends to invalidate whatever point you think you were making.

As others have already tried to explain, you are confusing ‘free market’ with a market economy. China most assuredly DOES have a market economy, even if it’s not a completely free market. NO ONE has a completely free market, and there has never BEEN a completely free market…there is no true Scotsman.

As to Russia…well, that’s why I qualified things by saying ‘nearly every prosperous country on earth has some form of market based economics these days’. Russia would fall into the category of one of those who AREN’T particularly prosperous these days, mostly because their economy is only nominally markets based.

The difference is I know I’m ignorant and I want to learn…you don’t know how ignorant you are on this subject, think you know what you are talking about, and don’t seem to have any particular inclination to learn anything on the subject. Just assert and then say you want the thread to end (after being embarrassed) and then return to assert again.

I have learned an incredible amount of knowledge over the years on this board, and have enjoyed reading even posters who have completely different world views from my own. I’ve modified my own positions to a huge extent based on what various debates and discussions on this board. Will you do likewise? Go back and really read what some of those people have tried to say in this thread, and really THINK about it. Toss out your preconceptions, don’t try and flee the thread (and then come back), but sit down and really put your mind to it. You might still come away thinking your positions were correct, but maybe in the process you will learn something first.

Or not…as you will.

-XT

xt You just can’t let go. If you wanted to cause needless pain congratulations you did so. Now please for the love of God, golet it go.

We don’t pay athletes and entertainers exorbitant salaries. We pay some of them exorbitant salaries. There are plenty of entertainers singing in bars and just surviving. There are plenty of minor league ball players who are toiling away.
Lots of them don’t make as much money as a teacher and a lot less than a doctor.

Well said Blinkie.
Our standard of living has gone down the past 50 years, in my honest opinion.
Some may say it has gone up, if thier standard is based on how much junk you can collect. Weve gone downhill where superficialality rules supreme.

Character of individual, honesty, selflessness and love for fellow humans are at an all time low.

Remember the civil rights movement? The women’s movement?

How many negroes would agree with you, Randy?

Both of those are entirely valid, but both concern social justice, and don’t concern free markets.

TWEEEEEEET!

Discussions of the ignorance or incivility of other posters has now ceased.
Engaging in those comments, further, will result in Warnings.

[ /Moderating ]