Free Market...No... Wait a minute...

Great Debates
1

Is the “Free Market” the highest moral order?

How about a man and a woman ( a husband and a wife) with an “average” IQ working their hearts out.

Both work. At least forty hours a week.

But they can’t afford to buy a house. Or get decent medical insurance.

Then there are the Dictators and the Sheiks and the CEOs of Bank of America…

They ‘work’ hard too.

But…what they get is riches beyond measure for the ‘average’ human being.

So…is some people’s “hard work” more valuable than others?

Should someone like Lewis from the Bank of American make more than $5,000/hr when men, also trying vailiantly to take care of their families make minimum wage?

Who decides this?

Okay, okay. Add up all of the variables: family, education, native talent, skill-sets, desire, drive and strengths…

And then PROVE to me that one person’s ‘work’ is thousands of times more valuable than someone else’s.

Oh, please don’t tell me that some person’s “innate skills” are more “valuable” than others.

Maybe…more valuable in the sense of producing more or moving things forward - (but that because of more social advantages or connections…)

It comes down to the false “social constrtuct” that the person earning the most money is the “best” person.

The false, but obviously most powerful notion, that “He who dies with most toys wins.”

Can’t we ever, EVER, get past the notion of valuing folks acording to money, looks, power and possessions?

Can we EVER leave some better values to the future generations?

You’d think that followers of Christ would be “on board” with loving justice and eqaulity. After all, Christ was the first to say, “There is no male nor female, no Greek nor Jew, no slave nor master… but all are EQUAL in Christ Jesus.”

Republican Christians… shame on you. Christ said ALL were equal in Him.

After Pentecost…(and the Power that you all claim to believe in)… all Christians sold everything and “…held everything 'in common.”

Was that Socialism? Communism?

No.

It wasn’t anything but saying that we are all equal.

It didn’t last long. That’s for sure.

But… It happened.

IF you believe the Bible. (Which most Republicans claim to believe.)

I HATE that Christianity has been so misrepresented by Republicans. (And others.)

Christ preached Love, Tolerance.

But mostly…just Love.

So… back to the current, everyday news in this Nation - Oligarchies, Plutochracies, the top 1% of this country in terms of wealth…NONE of this is right.

No One - including the Kings, Queens, Sheiks, Four-Star Generals, Presidents, Movies Stars, Sports Stars, BIG Political Stars are ANY BETTER than the billions and billions of other folks who live out their comparative ordinary lives every day.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The “Hoi Poloi” - the masses - the “average” people - the “workers” - they are ‘meant’ to be led…

Can’t you wise, connected, monied, more well-traveled, more sophisticated, more powerful people LEAD the “Hoi Poloi” into something better than what we are experiencing now?

Apparently not.

And, by thus, are your intentions known.

2

Commie. :wink:

3

The number of points you just brought up could fill up many sociological, literature, and economics books among others. There is no way to comment on them in a good way. It sounds like you are a proponent of true Christian socialism and there is nothing wrong with that but the whole thing is too complicated debate effectively. Taking all your points at face value, one would have to debate all of society and that is a little much for a message board or even an entire college faculty department.

4

Yes… that’s exactly right, Shagnasty. He should take all his points and debate them with the philosophy depart of a nearby community college. He should take them away. Far, far away.

More seriously, I can’t find anything worth debating in this insipid pile of tripe, so I shall ignore it.

5

I just want to say that I agree with the vast majority of what you’re saying. Good post.

6

Yep.

Fergod’ssake –

Communism. Socialism. Oligarchicys. Plutocracies. Democracies. Republics.

So many words (and systems of study) for those driven to have power, and to gain power over those who do not.

Woo Hoo!

How about let’s get “Modern” and study those personality profiles who seek to gain power over “The Masses” no matter what political contingencies they are born into?

What an interesting proposition.

Bush 41 and the Saudis?

(And Saddam Hussein, etc.)

And the Afghans!

Let the US give guns and power and every military advantage on the face of the earth to them when they serve the momentary purpose of the US - and then bitch about it later… and have to gain billions in the military budget to ‘adjust the course’…bleh… oh wait…and not just that side of the earth…but also South and Central America…

Oh…excuse me…

Just American Military and Political folks set the World Stage…

Sorry World!

Capitalism Rules.

Er…right…

Let it alone.

Let it work.

Without regulation.

Ahhhrrgg… stop it! You 6 billion other ‘losers’…

The “Brights” are handling things fine…

7

Was the gratuitous sneer at community colleges necessary?

See this is what the op is on about. Asshats think they’re better then other people just because a person’s life situation has them attending a local community college.

Thank you for providing a good example of what the OP is talking about.

8

Smiling Bandit…"…so I shall ignore it…" (The “tripe” that is…)

I imagine you consider all enrollees in “Community Colleges” as “tripe” ???

What a Maroon!!

I wish these advocates of the advantages of “Capitilism” would consider themselves in the “line-up” …

The top 1% is something “Smiling Bandit” can never, ever, in his wildest dreams, of winning the lottery or winning the “Nobel Peace Prize”, or making the top money at his own Company or any combination of all three circumstances could ever get close to, would win him any more “power” than he has now, is just… STUPIDITY.

I guess most Republicans and Democrats just don’t realize that they are just Handmaidens.

How does it feel?

You’re just like the rest of the Sheeple.

Only you don’t think so.

Hope you enjoy the servitude.
(Though he’s a good schill for them…the poor bastard…)

9

I would suggest that it is difficult to have a coherent conversation about a near random collection of one-line emotive slogans that cover the gamut of social and economic issues facing a modern state and society.

So, perhaps somewhat less “enhanced” posting and a bit of focus, then perhaps the poor sheeple might have something coherent to respond to.

10

I’ll jump in…just to tackle a point.

A lot of it is all about supply and demand. many people out there can bust their hump and stock shelves, flip burgers, push paper, etc.

Not everybody is up for running an international corporation.

The more potential employees for a certain job, the less the wages are and vice versa.

Why do actors and athletes earn what they earn? Because they have a unique skill set that the rank & file just simply don’t have.

To quote a great movie “the world needs ditchdiggers, too”

11

I guess the term “working hard” gets too much use and/or too much emphasis put on it. The hardest real job I ever had was working in a pizza shop for minimum wage. Compare that with my current job where I do next to nothing and get paid five times that amount.

As others have said, it is about supply and demand and having a marketable skill. Do you provide something that others will pay money for?

When people speak of “working hard” to succeed, they don’t mean digging a hole and filling it back up again. They mean work hard toward a particular goal with an outcome in mind and focus on achieving that.

An unfortunate fact of life is that not everyone has the mental faculties to become a multimillionaire, no matter how hard they work.

12

Hey, I could run HP just as well as Fiorina did, or Lehman Bros just as well as Fuld did, or any other number of examples. Go in, rearrange some things, be incompetent overall, and bail with my golden parachute before everything goes crashing down.

13

Life is not fair.

In every country, in every society, in every economy, some have power and most do not.

In every country, in every society, in every economy, some have money and some do not.

A society in which many people do very well, and most people do pretty well, is a happier, more fulfilled, freer and better society than one in which mediocrity and deprivation are “fairly” distributed among everyone.

Human nature dictates that not everyone will get ahead, nor save money, nor be ambitious.

History has shown that authoritarian dictatorship is the only way to enforce fairness of outcome and equality of lifestyle. That, and murder in the tens of millions.

History has also shown that governments that enforce fairness and equality of lifestyle cannot provide adequately for even their citizens’ most basic needs.

People live happier and more productive and more rewarding and freer lives in a free-market capitalist society. They have bigger cars and bigger houses and a wider selection to choose from at the grocery store. They have nice clothes and good food and good booze and lots of affairs. They go to concerts and the lake and to nice restaurants and movies in nice theaters and they have lots of music and they hardly think about the government as they go about their lives.

The world functions perfectly in the sense that when everything that comes to bear on a situation is taken into account, things have no choice but to be what they are.

These are incontrovertible facts of life. They cannot be changed.

14

People can fail at their job at any level, it’s more noticable (and the person is less replaceable) when it’s a big-wig. Anyway, the high-ups at HP, Lehman, etc…I’m sure they did something correctly in a previous position to achieve their next one. People aren’t just born into a CEO job of a major international firm with stockholders (maybe a family owned company like Ford, but that’s different).

15

People can fail at their job at any level, it’s more noticable (and the person is less replaceable) when it’s a big-wig. Anyway, the high-ups at HP, Lehman, etc…I’m sure they did something correctly in a previous position to achieve their next one. People aren’t just born into a CEO job of a major international firm with stockholders (maybe a family owned company like Ford, but that’s different).

16

The thing is, most millionaires are really freaking stupid. Knowing how to game the system is not intelligence. It generally correlates with narcissism, as they don’t seem to care about those they hurt to get there.

Heck, certain posters on this board (I’d name names if we were in the Pit) show this quite easily. I have yet to encounter anyone on the board that claims to make a lot of money who is not a complete jerk about it. But maybe that’s a self selecting thing, as the non-jerks wouldn’t bother telling us they have a lot of money in the first place.

The main thing I don’t like about the current system is that people don’t start on a level playing field. IF they did, I could understand the position of the “the poor deserve their lot in life” people. I’d like to see the government tax the heck out of people after they die, as their decedents didn’t in any way earn that money. But unless we started voting to put hand-to-mouth people in charge, I doubt that would ever happen.

Oh, and Starving Artist, I’m unaware of any government that ever tried to be fair. Could you cite? If you are talking about most communist countries, they failed because not because everybody in the government was trying to be fair, but because a few took advantage of the supposedly fair system. I think the closer we get to true democracy (where the poor who outnumber the rich actually have more power than them) the less likely this would happen.

Anyways, I’m pretty sure that the founding fathers of this country broke off from England because they thought things weren’t fair. We’re not doing too badly…

17

The only people who say this are those who have never met a rich person. How many millionaires do you know? I know several, and they are all brilliant in their unique ways.

18

Assuming you can trust the chart at the NY Times, you can’t just blame the starting point. People start out at the top and fall while others rise. Granted, it is easier to stay on top than to climb there…

19

The free market is the economic equivalent of natural selection. It’s not “fair” or “nice”, it’s cruel and nasty. The poor wildebeest gets chased down and killed by the hard working lionesses, while the male lion strolls in and gets to eat first, then goes back to his nap.

As much as it sucks, the alternative is Intelligent Design, and unless you are actually God, I pretty much guarantee you’re going to screw it up so much that the wildbeest will fondly reminisce about being chased by lions, and the lionesses will look back at the scraps they used to get as a veritable feast.

20

Employment works because you can produce more value with the aid of your employer’s resources and infrastructure ($X/hour) than you can without ($Y/hour).

In a free market, the employer cannot offer less than $Y per hour. If he does, there is no reason for the potential employee to accept the offer, since he’d be better off self-employed. And the employee cannot expect the employer to spend more than $X (including payroll taxes, etc.) to hire him, because otherwise the employer is making himself worse off by hiring you.

Between those two extremes it’s up to you and the employer to work out the details.