I’ve been thinkning about this ridiculous, barbaric bullshit behavior, and, quite frankly, its mean, asshollish,(my word) and something that needs to be addressed. Fuck!
I was awatching a show on F/X about animals, and the shit the Spanish people do to bulls makes me want to devalue their lives as much as they devalue the bulls’ lives. They were lighting bulls on fire, stabbing them, throwing rocks at them. . .torturing them, for what? Who the hell knows!
Die Spain!
Bullfighting is part of the Spanish culture. You may view it as torture, but it is an ingrained part of their heritage. How would you feel if you were a hunter, and some animal rights activist called your actions “ridiculous, barbaric bullshit behavior”?
What if you were Christian and someone of another religion claimed that your celebration of the brutal murder of the foundation of your religion (Easter) was “sick, twisted” etc.?
Please, before you start bashing it, do some research on it.
And after the bull is killed, their carcasses are immediately shipped to a local butcher for consumption.
I am neither one, but I understand what you are trying to say. It does not, however, justify their fucked up world. They used to burn witches as part of their culture in many parts of Europe and America. It aint sport, Sparky.
Fucked up world? That’s what a lot of the world thinks of the US. jamesblan, you are just going to have to live with the fact that all the world does not share your values.
I would be the last one to defend bullfighting but consider the following:
If you go to a bullfight in Spain you will see a very sizeable portion of the spectators are American tourists. They are a major source of revenue for the bullfights. If you follow the running of the bulls in Pamplona every year you will see many of the wounded are Americans. They are a major part of what keeps this going.
Amnesty International has worse things to say about the USA’s judicial system, including the death penalty, trying minors as adults, executing the mentally impaired, than about most European countries, including Spain. Many Europeans see the US as quite barbaric for these and other reasons.
If you care about cruelty to animals I can assure you bullfighting is nothing compared to the way animals are treated in China and most third world countries. So picking Spain as a target is quite silly.
In the US, even though it is illegal, there are cockfights and dogfights held regularly and it seems the frequency is increasing.
To pick on Spain and its culture in the terms you just did makes you sound like a total idiot who is incapable of understanding that other people do things you might not like and they still have a right to do it. If you want to rant, the place is the pit, not here. This is a place to learn about what others think.
Depends how you define sport, I guess.
Hemmingway wrote a fun book called “Death in the Afternoon” which is a mostly non-fiction account of the bullfight, trying to describe it to the American point of view. He says that the people who jump into these illegal town-square bullfights are mostly amateurs doing it purely for the sport; for the “immediate excitement, and it is very great excitement; and for the retrospective pleasure, of having shown their contempt for death on a hot day in their own town square…It is a strange feeling to have an animal come toward you consciously seeking to kill you, his eyes open looking at you, and see the oncoming of the lowered horn that he intends to kill you with. It gives enough of a sensation so that there are always men willing to go into the capeas for the pride of having experienced it…”
He makes it sound pretty cool! But hey, it’s Hemmingway.
Ok fine, kill the bulls, the Spanish have a great culture, history, and contribution to world life. They never established a slave trade, racial hierarchy, Catholic religion (which is probably the worst thing they did) or kill any people whoi didn’t need killing when they conquered the ‘New World’ Further, my choice to denegrate bullfighting is racist, misogynist, and homophobic. Moreover, I wholeheartedly agree that I have no clue as to the fact that no other part of the world exists. . .HEll, why should I? I am an American. Just as you said, my point is silly. Thank you for educating me, sailor.
As I have said, American tourism is a major source of support for bullfighting in Spain and in Mexico. You might want to adress your fellow Americans about this. You can even campaign to have a law passed which would make it illegal for Americans to do this.
Just like many people are opposed to the death penalty in the US, many people are opposed to bullfighting in Spain. To disqualify a whole country and culture like that makes you sound like an ignorant idiot.
>> Thank you for educating me, sailor
Oh, you need way more educating than I can provide here. Your rant is so childish and bigoted and ignorant that it is not even worth addressing. This kind of idiotic rant belongs in the pit, not here. Read the rules of this bullring.
And just for laughs I will remind you of that English woman who went to Pamplona to “save the bulls” and was gored to death by the bulls she was trying to save. On the IQ level you seem to be on par with her.
Since when does cultural conditioning make a behavior ‘right’ or ‘moral?’ Being taught something doesn’t mean that you must accept it, and being born into a culture doesn’t mean that you must follow its traditions.
I live in a relatively remote, rural area, where homophobia is the current en vogue prejudice. I’ve seen others, and myself, being taunted and ridiculed for acting differently. But, according to your line of reasoning, it’s part of the tradition and shouldn’t be viewed as wrong, regardless of the pain it causes.
What exactly is the point here? The world doesn’t have to share his values, but he can express them however he likes.
Don’t think of me as a sympathizer, jamesblan, because I’m not. Your comments and attitude are entirely reprehensible. How can you just discount the benefits of a culture because of one part of it? And, the ‘Die Spain!’ comment at the end of your post baffles me. It just doesn’t register how you justify grouping every single Spanish person into one big ol’ bull-murdering club. Guilt by association maybe? Does being an American make one rude? (The reputation we have overseas in some countries) Does being an Oklahoman make me a cowboy? I think not.
YthDecay, as I said, I’d be the last one to defend bullfighting but jamesblan is the kind of person you’d wish would be on the other side of the argument, the kind of person you do not want on your side.
>> The world doesn’t have to share his values, but he can express them however he likes.
Not here. If he wants to do it in the form of a stupid and insulting and ignorant rant, the place is the pit. Here he should try to sound a bit more intelligent.
He is not trying to understand why some people from some countries (including the USA) may enjoy bullfighting. He is not trying to find out what others think about this. He is just ranting and insulting. The place for that is the pit not here. he is a jerk and belongs in the pit.
Trying to be a bit less provocative, I will say that, as an American tourist, I went to a bullfight in Madrid because a friend of mine, who loves it, recommended that I go when I was there. So I went.
And I really hated it. But I went back to my hotel and I didn’t necessarily think the Spanish were evil people for it.
I didn’t go to the monument dedicated to Franco’s soldiers during the Civil War. That would have bothered me a lot more.
Personally, my biggest complaint with Spain is that the people there live on an entirely different schedule than I do. I want to eat dinner at 6, 7 at the latest. Great food, but you always had to wait until 9:30 or so to eat!
>> Great food, but you always had to wait until 9:30 or so to eat
They must eat so late because they are busy burning protestants at the stake 
I think our reaction to other cultures says more about us than about other cultures. I’ll give you a couple of examples of images I have found disturbing.
One is the incident during the LA riots where a man was pulled from his truck, his head smashed witha cinder block and the agressor then does a victory dance. The TV comentator calls him “gentleman” and in the following days many people justify this and other actions of the rioters. Sorry, to me there is just nothing in the world which would justify what I saw. It makes me sick to the stomach. The image is disturbing and makes me sick.
Another: In a documentary about some middle eastern country (gurethistan or something) they showed what seems to be a comon entertainment there: they tie a bear to a post with a length of chain and let loose a pack of dogs on it. The bear mauls a few dogs but finally the dogs do the bear in. It was years ago and it still makes me sick to remember. Of course, from where I sit it is barbaric but I am not them. I have lived a sheltered and spoiled life so that makes me sick. I would like those people to have a better culture where that was not an acceptable passtime. But to disqualify and insult them all would be very arrogant. Those people survive in conditions where we could probably not. My disgust at what I saw says a lot about me, about how spoiled I am and about how easy I’ve had it.
You could write a stupid and insulting rant about any country or culture. Wanna write one about the USA? You have all the ingredients: Baby killers in Vietnam, Yugoslavia, Iraq… Fat, arrogant imperialists who want to be world cops, Violent psychos who kill each other at the drop of a hat, … … yeah, all Americans are like that. <sigh>
Bear-baiting was also a big hit in Elizabethan England. (The Globe Theater was next door to a bear-baiting pit.) Not sure how that fits into our discussion, but there you have it.
Bullfighting is nowhere near as cruel as the lifelong treatment of dairy and beef cattle in the US. Bulls used for fighting in Spain live the life of Riley before they die in the ring. I guess we all gotta pick our causes, but I worry more about the treatment of children in some parts of the world than I worry about Spanish bulls.
>> Bear-baiting was also a big hit in Elizabethan England
But that was Ok because they were anti-catholic
Thanks for that tidbit which I sort of knew and had forgotten.
Another thing which I do not understand why it is legal is boxing. What is the enjoyment of seeing two men beat the crap out of each other? And we call Roman gladiators barbaric?
I can understand how the suffering of the bull can be disturbing to some but I also understand how, if you can make abstraction and ignore that part, there is a certain skill involved. If you only see the suffering you will be repulsed. If you can only see the skill you will enjoy it.
This is even truer of bullfighting on horseback. What they do with the horses is just amazing. If you can concentrate on that and not on the bull, you can see what I mean.
It seems humans (at least some humans) have a need for violence and blood. Here in DC many young people are raising pit bulls and other dogs expressly to fight them. They also use them as weapons against other people.
>> Bulls used for fighting in Spain live the life of Riley before they die in the ring
Reminds me of the farmer who had a bull in a very big field. If you wanted to cross the field the farmer would let you cross for free… but the bull would charge 
>> we all gotta pick our causes, but I worry more about the treatment of children in some parts of the world
Amen to that. Plus all the innocent people who are persecuted for their beliefs. I support Amnesty International
An American touring Spain stopped at a local restaurant following a day of sightseeing. While sipping his sangria, he noticed a sizzling, scrumptious looking platter being served at the next table.
He asked the waiter, “What is that you just served?”
The waiter replied, “Ah senor, you have excellent taste! Those are the bull’s testicles from the bull fight this morning. A delicacy!”
The American, though momentarily daunted, said, “What the hell, I’m on vacation! Bring me an order!”
The waiter replied, “I am sorry senor. There is only one serving per day because there is only one bull fight each morning. If you come early tomorrow and place your order,
we will be sure to save you this delicacy!”
The next morning, the American returned, placed his order,
and then that evening he was served the one and only special delicacy of the day.
After a few bites, and inspecting the contents of his platter, he called to the waiter and said, “These are delicious, but they are much, much smaller than the ones I saw you served yesterday!”
The waiter shrugged his shoulders and replied,
“Si señor. Sometimes the bull wins.”
sailor,
Justify what you want, and I knew you’d go to the racist, ‘bigot’ card because you have such a ridiculous grandiosity about you that you have to do that to try and win any discussion. Choke yourself, please.
jamesblan sounds a little hot around the collar. i won’t defend bullfighting because it’s creates arguments that no one wins. i will defend Spain and the Spanish. I’ve been here for 9 years and it’s by choice. well maybe not now because I got married to a local and we have our first child on the way… check this country out and don’t stay on the beaten path. for me, it’s been great to see all the positive changes that have taken place here especially the growth of a strong middle. i could go on, but check Spain out for yourself and go with an open mind.
jamesblan, I do not know your age but you would do well in learning from those who are your superiors in age, knowledge, intelligence and seniority in this board. You have just arrived here and you do so by posting a rant full of insults. If you bother to read the rules of the SDMB you will learn post like yours belong in the pit and not here. Here we attempt to have some intelligent and meaningful exchanges.
>> I knew you’d go to the racist, ‘bigot’ card
Taking into account the only one who has used, so far, the word “racist” here is you, I have to think you are a bigger jerk than I initially thought.
>> you have such a ridiculous grandiosity about you that you have to do that to try and win any discussion. Choke yourself, please
The fact that, to everything which I and others have posted, this is the best and only answer you can come up with says a lot about you. Everybody here has been posting their reasons and their views on this topic. Everybody that is, except you who can only come up with idiocy on the level of an 8 year old. You have yet to post anything intelligent adressing what I or any of the other posters have said. I’ve seen posters like you before… I’ve seen them come and I’ve seen them go… With that attitude I do not see much future for you around here. We often disagree but we enjoy intelligent exchanges here, not puerile fits. You might find other boards more suited to your level of intellectual comprehension.
sailor,
What a wonderful and perfectly consistent with your own point reply. Sure the ‘choke yourself’ comment was a tad much but I surely doubt you speak for anyone but yourself. And the idea that tries to insult me and the eight-year-old mentality are mine alone, you far exceed the immaturity I have established because you attack me for everything you do as well, (and sure, I got a little catty, but you cannot even stick to the subject.)
Animals who have no reason to die are subject to torture at human expense in Spain in the form of bullfighting which reaches far beyond the actual sport of bullfighting. There is nothing racist in this comment. There is nothing misleading.
If you disagree, fine. If you use that as a platform for something else, be quiet.
I do not think slaughter for food is comparable. Hunting is, perhaps, but that is a diferent discussion.
My bad, I should not have said, “Die Spain”. I apologize to you and your wife. The practice of bullfighting is one of the many things the world needs to change.