I was inspired by Jack Batty’s post over here and I thought I’d verbalize in a more proper forum.
I want to know if your sexual preference is “at the core of your being,” so to speak. As I mentioned in that Pit thread, personally it isn’t for me. I’ve always looked at being heterosexual in the same light as being 5’10" tall. What this boils down to is that if I don’t like you, it’s because you’re an asshole, not because your sexual preference is different than mine. Now, I’ll admit to having some prejudices based on other things, but sexual orientation has never been one of them.
Perhaps I’d think differently if I was gay, but I really do think it’s possible to dislike a person’s homosexuality (or heterosexuality, if you’re gay), but still like the person. The old, “love the sinner, hate the sin,” adage is, IMO, feasible. Unfortunately, it seems the people who spout that stuff usually can’t make the distinction between “sinner and sin.”
I’ll wrap this up with the thoughts I had when I saw a gay pride demonstration back in the early 90’s. This was at a conservative campus and there was a lot of vocal (and nearly violent) oposition. I was looking back and forth between the groups of pro and anti people and the only thing I could think of is, “why do you people CARE who f*cks who?!?” At that moment in time, I equally hated both the people yelling, “faggot,” and the people yelling, “breeder!”
I guess I need to take a position for debate… Okay, I believe that it is foolish to make your sexual orientation the most important thing in your life. People are so much more than that.
Note
I work tonight and I will be going to bed shortly. I’ll try to get back on before shift starts, but if not, don’t worry. I’ll be back.
I’d say my original “core of their being” comment was slightly hyperbolic. I don’t mean to say that being homosexual, or heterosexual or bisexual or asexual (did I miss any?) is the most important thing in anyone’s life as you said. But it is a piece of the puzzle.
How can you say that you love somebody is you hate what they are?
The reason I cringe at that “hate the sin, love sinner” stuff is that it is pre-disposing the Christian tenet of sin. I don’t buy into that. Who a person feels attracted to is no more a “sin” than you being 5’ 10" is a sin – so I hate it when it is propped up as an issue.
“Oh well, you’re a nice person and all, but you like people of your own sex so you’re obviously morally inferior to me, because it says so right in the 2000 year old book that was written in a different language. I’m right and you’re wrong and it doesn’t matter that you can’t change who you’re attracted to.”
Now … as for demonstrations and debates growing heated … yes there are militants on each side. But I would offer the suggestion that the militants on the side of the “moral people” are the insitgators more often than not. There are a lot fewer gay people in the world than straight people. They’ve been bullied and beaten and called inferior for so long, it’s no wonder they feel a need to rise up and defend themselves.
In my experience, it’s more likely for some one who holds the to the theory of “I don’t care what they do, as long as they don’t do it to me”, to be the most outspoken about how sick and wrong it is. More likely, that is, than a homosexual who just wants to be left alone with his sexual proclivity to stand up and shout, “I’m here, I’m queer, and I’m not going anywhere!”
I think there’s an important difference between “being at the core of your being” and actually “defining you”. A lot of things can be at the core of their being and be very important without being all-encompassing. Being human is at the core of my being, but does that define me as only just “Generic Human”?
The point is that when you’re criticizing something that is very important to a person – from religion, to sexual preference, to race or gender, or anything – you should expect a strong reaction far more so than if you are criticizing their choice of breakfast cereal. This is especially true when a person believes that this aspect of themselves that is being criticized is not only central but fundamentally unchangable.
I do not think it is truly possible to love the sinner and hate the sin. If you honestly believe someone is damned by God to hell for all eternity, and you have absolutely no problem with God for doing that, I don’t think that real love for that human being is possible. (This is purely based on my experience as a former Christian. I found that I could not reconcile believing that friends of other religions were going to Hell as loving or just, which was essentially required of a Christian in that particular sect.)
You can lovingly disapprove of a person’s life, yes. I know I have been in positions many times where a friend was doing something stupid, or self-destructive. Just because I think that they were wrong in that instance doesn’t mean I can’t love them. However, when you cross over the line from “I disagree with you” to “my God will torture you forever unless you change your mind”, love for that human being is irrevokably lost.
Sorry if I’m missing the obvious here, but what is it that you’re asking? Is it:
Is your sexuality (sexual orientation) at the core of your being?
OR
How does the importance you attach to your own sexual orientation affect your liking/disling of others?
Either way, I agree with you that (most) people are much more than than their sexual orientation. But if some people feel that this is an important part of their being but which is routinely denied by others, or by society at large, I have no problem with them raising their voices about the situation.
I figured that was hyperbole, considering you voiced it from H4E, but it just got me thinking about my sexuality’s place in my psyche.
I shouldn’t have mentioned the “love the sinner” part, because I’m not looking at this from a religious standpoint. Being the recovering Catholic that I am, the only part of the bible that holds water, IMO, is “Love thy neighbor.” Judging people based on what they cannot change pisses me off… and yes, I’ve been pissed at myself when I’ve done it as well.
mikan,
The way I interpret “core of your being” is that it is the single most defining aspect of yourself. I’ve met two different gay people who immediatly hated me because I am hetero. This made me think that being gay was so important to them that they can’t see past people’s sexuality. So to answer you, “Is your sexuality…” and “How does the importance…” are pretty much intermingled, in the spirit of my post, anyhow.
fluiddruid,
To me, I feel the opposite. My sexuality wasn’t my choice, so therefore I don’t put much weight to it. I laugh when somone calls me a spic or something similar. However, if you mention the fact I lost one of my scholarships because my GPA fell one tenth of a point shy, well then you’ve really pissed me off.
I’m sorry that I’m not verbalizing this better, but can you see what I’m getting at? To me the important stuff is what I can affect a change on.
I agree that the OP is worded a bit clumsily. Being straight is certainly “at the core of my being”, as are any number of other basic things about myself that I cannot change. But how important is my orientation when it comes to everyday life? not very. Sex just isn’t that important to me. It’s just not something I think about very often.
Again, this is in my experience, but who I love is independent of what their sex is. My two closest friends (male) have a deeper place in my heart than any woman has, yet that doesn’t mean I’ll sleep with them. I love them for the fact we think alike, that I can count on them for anything, that they will ask help from me if they need it, they make me laugh… I could go on for pages, but none of the reasons I like them stem from what their sexual preference is.
So I guess I have to disagree with you here.
Perhaps I’m the one that’s wired strangely. Does anyone else think sex (the act, not the gender) and love are independent? I can have sex and not be in love, I can love somone and not have sex with them, or I can have sex and be in love at the same time. However, the gay/straight component is only relevant for having sex.
5-HT,
I can usually word things better. Honest. It’s sleep deprivation that’s hurting me… really.
I am also 5’10", and I would say that my heterosexuality is considerably more important to my self-identity than my height. Being 5’10" doesn’t affect my behavior very much, other than I don’t try for the slam dunk, but instead rely on my outside shooting.
Being heterosexual, OTOH, affects a great deal of my behavior. I would argue that the three keys to self-identity are: what you believe, what you do, and who you share (or wish to share) your life with. And being heterosexual means that 1/2 of the species is eliminated from candidacy for the person I share my life with.
I think that Sua has come up with the exact right answer. So that this isn’t just a me-too post, I’ve started thinking that the key for lesbian, gay, and bisexual folks to be accepted in society at large is to convince everyman that other than the fact that we have a different sexual orientation, we’re just ordinary folks. “We’re here, we’re queer, and other than that, we’re just like you” should be the new slogan.
To me-too the me-too post, I want to make clear that the effect sexual orientation has on my self-identity has no impact on my sense of the “sameness” or “otherness” of other people. I mean, I don’t feel real close to or identify with lesbians as a group simply because they also like chicks.
My sexual orientation has a definite impact on my self-identity, but the sexual orientation of those I meet ends up being considerably less important in how I define them than the other two prongs of identity, beliefs and vocation. I think this makes sense, if only because other people’s beliefs and vocation will have considerably more impact on me than who they want to sleep with.
Thanks for the clarification about “core” here. Quite honestly, I’m not sure I would ever point to any one thing as the single most defining aspect of myself. I’d like to think that I’m not as simple as that. There are a lot of things that make me who I am (my sexuality, my political views, my ethnic identity, my nationality, my profession, etc.), and each can become more or less salient according to the situation. Some are accomplishments or at least self-cultivated views and tastes, but others are not.
With that in mind, I would say that my heterosexuality is definitely a very important part of my being, but I don’t have any particular dislike of peope who are homosexual (or bisexual, or asexual, or whatever) simply because of their sexual orientation. And as far as I know, I’ve never been immediately “hated” by someone who’s gay simply because I’m straight. I can imagine it happening, of course, just as I know it’s possible that some people will immediately dislike me just because I am American, but it hasn’t been typical of my experience so far.
I don’t think people have a “single defining characteristic.” We’re dynamic creatures aggregated out of various factors, some fully in our control, some only partially, and some utterly out of it. I view “core of one’s being” as not being a thing, but more a sort of center-of-gravity from all the traits that make a person.
I’m largely in agreement with SuaSponte, as well. Sexual preference has a large impact on defining that center-of-gravity of the self; it’s not the only factor, no, but it’s certainly larger than having blue eyes and standing at six foot.
Just a thought. How many gay friends do you have (if straight)? And, vice versa, how many straight friends do you have (if gay)?
Frankly, almost all of my close friends are heterosexual (as I am). At least, as far as I know. Some of my work associates are gay/lesbian, but they don’t bother me one way or the other. My liking heterosexualness doesn’t seem to bother them. But, we don’t “hang” with each other, go to the same places, etc…
So, even tho I don’t think that sexual preference is the only or even a primary defining aspect of my life, it sure does seem to affect other areas of my life. I would bet it’s the same with many others.
BTW, my Dad ‘came out’ when I was a teenager, so I admit to some mixed feelings on this subject.
[hijack] Does the terminology “gay” “straight” as opposed to hetero/homosexual, cause any problems? I don’t mean to offend, but I often have no clue. [/hijack]
If the significant parts of me my orientation (and in orientation I include a lot more than the straight/gay axis, as I know a number of people, including myself, whose orientations are not adequately described that way) were different, I would be a different person; I cannot see how this is could be thought not to be a core part of identity.
I happen to know that some of my religious and philosophical outlook shares origins with my sexual orientation; large portions of my life are defined by experiences driven in significant part by that orientation; large portions of my life are set into their shape by these approaches to the universe. Given how deeply interwoven all this stuff is, and how much of an effect those interweavings have on the rest of my existence, I cannot but consider it core to my self and my nature. I know other people who find their orientation is about as significant to them as their height. I think this is one of those things that varies according to person – in fact, I think the significance of one’s orientation can reasonably be construed to be a component of orientation. (To be honest, the fact that I’m straight is comparable to the fact that I’m five-seven; it just is. The parts of my orientation that I consider intrinsic lie elsewhere.)
As to friendships broken up by orientation, sometimes I feel lost and alone amidst a sea of bisexuals, of which group I am not a member.
Is there a difference? I’ve always heard that phrase as a cop out when someone is breaking up. “I love her but I’m not in love with her, so I left.” I’m sorry it sounds like I’m being a cynical ass about this, but it really is a genuine question of mine. To answer your question, though; I don’t know, because I don’t differentiate between the two ideas.
NoClueBoy,
There are five people that I care enough about to consider friends. To me, friendship isn’t something that can be given lightly, so that’s why there’s only five. Of them, three are straight men, one is a gay man, and one is a straight female (and before anyone asks, yes, I want to have sex with her).
Sua,
I can agree with your keys to self identity, but I don’t think one’s sexual orientation will eliminate half the species. Who you choose to be friends with is as important as who you choose as a mate. Upon preview, I realized that you’re talking about a significant other, and not friends in general. In that case, I see your point about eliminating half the population.
Okay… I submit that I’m the one whose way of thinking is odd.
