My wife and I are currently dog-sitting our neighbor’s “Schnoodle.”
A schnoodle is a mix between a poodle and a schnauzer. There seems to be an entire subculture of breeds that exist only as poodle mixes. For example, Peek-a-Poos (Pekinese mixed with a Poodle) Labradoodles (Labrador et Poodle), and Yorkipoos (Yorkshire Terrier et. Poodle), and probably 20 others that I’ve seen looking around.
Watching this dog and thinking about cross breeds got me thinking:
My questions are:
Why does it seem to be SO prevalent that these mixes are with poodles. You don’t see, say Boston Frise or my favorite, the BullShit (Bulldog and Shih-tzu). But many breeds have been cut in with poodles. Why poodles?
are there “Rules” on this? For example, how does it change the offspring if a dog were the result of a Yorkshire Father and Poodle Mother, versus a Poodle Father and Yorkshire Mother.
If two “Cross-Breeds” of the same type (say a male Schnoodle and a female Schnoodle) produce offspring, are the offspring also “Schnoodles” or to be a TRUE Schnoodle, must the offspring have two pure-bred parents, of different types.
and finally,
I’ve always been curious, can you make a ridiculous mix? Say, a St. Bernard and a Chihuahua. Obviously, this would need to be artificial insemination, as I don’t think the two are capable of actually mating…and I’m not sure, but I’d think the mother would need to be the St. Bernard (I doubt a Chihuahua could tote St. Bernard puppies, considering the size differences). But genetically, could it be done?
Poodles are crossed with other breeds because they have a desirable trait that few other dogs possess: they do not shed. For pedants in the room, I’ll clarify that they shed orders of magnitudes less than other dogs, and their hair is about as noticeable in a house as, say, the amount of leg and back hair that I shed. Standard poodles are not as yappy as their toy cousins, and they breed true for many desirable traits that make them excellent pets (sport instinct, possessiveness, friendly to kids, intelligent). Combine a standard poodle with a labrador (labradoodle) and you get a friendly curly-coated labrador that still excels at fetching. Combine it with a chow or shepherd to get a guard dog.
Another factor, probably related to the extremely low shedding of poodles, is that apparently poodle fur is hypoallergenic. People who are allergic to the general run of dogkind will not usually have problems with poodles. Poodle mixes may offer similar benefits, though I’m sure the hit-to-miss rate is not 100%.
This is not exactly an answer to your question, but relevant nonetheless. One reason you see people giving names to cross-breed dogs is economic. Purebreed dogs cost money, so people give cross-breeds official-sounding names to increase their financial worth. No one is going to pay good money for a puppy if you come right out and call it a mutt, but they might pay for a Peekapoo.
There aren’t really any Rules. I once saw an ad in the classifieds for “Alsatian Shepamute” pups (I assume they’re German Shepherd/Alaskan Malamute mix); guy was wanting $500 for 'em. I’ve also seen ads with people selling cross-breed dogs (say, Golden Retreiver/Dalmatian mixes), asking big money for them because both parents are AKC registered.
(Off topic: I like a nice mutt, myself, and think the prices people pay for purebreed dogs are outrageous. But I didn’t make the system.)
Around here, you get a lot of crosses with Border Collies. We have friends with what they call a “Borgi” (Border-Corgi cross) and a Border Jack (Border-Jack Russell Terrier). You can see characteristics of both breeds in their dogs, but they’re not crossing them further like one would with cattle.
On your fourth point, if extremes weren’t able to cross breed, then they would be seperate species, not seperate breeds within a species, wouldn’t they? I’m not in a big hurry to see a Daneapoo though.
You betcha they can. Saw it not too long ago, though the attempt was aborted by the owner of the female (since she’s ten). It’s a lab and she was in heat, constantly courted by an 8 lb mix of a lot of breeds. She laid down on her side and raised her tail.
:eek:
I can’t really think of two breeds less suitable to mix.
I too, believe the extreme cross is possible. I have met a chihuahua/german shepard mix dog. He was smaller then the average shepard, but he had huge buggy chihuahua eyes and a big chihuahua grin, and looked shiney. His coat was super-smooth and slick to his skin and gave the impression that he was a great big dog stuffed into a medium sized skin, like an overinflated ballloon. Boy, that was one cheerful pup.
My neighbors had a litter of Doberman Chihuahuas. Funniest damn thing. The bitch was the doberman, the chihuahua the proudest damn daddy I ever did see! Each of his pups was born bigger than him!
Poodles are cute and popular. The puppy mills and “designer dog” (aka mutt) breeders go for things which produce cute, fluffy puppies which encourage impulse buying.
The non-shedding hair thing is often given as an excuse, but if you want to be sure you get something which won’t shed and make you sneeze, buy a pure-bred poodle, crossing poodles and anything else won’t guarantee it.
Some of the Guide Dogs for the Blind Associations started breeding Poodle X Labradors (Labradoodles) in order to produce non-shedding dogs suitable for Guide Dog training, but the results are rarely consistent. Some of the puppies will be non-shedding, others will have Labrador hair (and they shed A LOT).
There are no rules. These dogs are essentially mutts. It would be possible to produce a new breed in this manner, but it would take many generations of carefully controlled and documented breeding to produce a new breed of dog. Some people are doing this, for example some of the Bulldog breeders are attempting to breed Bulldogs without the health problems which currently affect Bulldogs. However, the point of these designer mutts is mostly economic, to breed something cute, fluffy and appealing with a catchy name which can be sold for big dollars. Often for hundreds of dollars more than a purebred dog from an ethical breeder.
I’m sure there are some ethical and committed designer dog breeders out there, but from my knowledge and experience, they are in the minority.
If you breed two Snoodles together, the puppies will vary vastly in type. Even if you breed the original parents again, you will still end up with a wide variety of pups. It takes a lot of generations to produce a new breed of dog which will breed true to type.
There really is no such thing as a “true Snoodle”, they are really just ordinary cross-breeds.
Truly, I’ve nothing against cross-breed dogs, of my six dogs, only one is purebred, and he was a rescue anyway. But what infuriates me about these backyard breeders and puppy millers is that for the most part they don’t care about the dogs themselves, they only care about the money. They don’t care about health checking, they don’t care about any of the things responsible breeders care about, they just care about the money.
In Australia Maltese crossed with various cute, fluffy dogs are popular with the puppy millers, they produce gorgeous puppies just crying out to taken home. A few months ago I went through one of the biggest dog shelters in Melbourne on an ordinary day.
In the pens of impounded dogs they had maybe forty or more little fluffy dogs, mostly Maltese Xs, Lhasa Xs, Shitzu Xs. I have no doubt that many, if not most, of those dogs were bought as cute, fluffy little things, on impulse and once they got past the cute stage they were surrendered to the shelter. Most of them would end up in the killing pen because it’s hard to rehome all the dogs that need homes.
In general, the size of the mother will determine the size of the puppies in the womb, although there are always exceptions to the rule. But the world of dogs is full of persistent males, and there are any number of bizarre mixes around. Check some of the rescue organisations online and see what’s out there!
A friend of mine came across a dog in a pound the other day she swears was a Wolfhound X West Highland Terrier. Who knows?
I maybe wrong on this, as my admittedly limited research in this area was a while back, but I seem to recall that official recognition of a breed is granted when the crosses breed true for five generations (those would be dog generations, of course). I believe the AKC (American Kennel Club) has more stringent requirements than the CKC (Continental Kennel Club).
We have an American Mastiff. The breed was initially a cross between an English Mastiff and an Anatolian Shepherd, and the goal was a Mastiff WITHOUT the drool. The breed is now recognized by the CKC.
Breeds of dog which are not recognised by the AKC may use the Foundation Stock Service: http://www.akc.org/registration/fss/details.cfm
This site seems to suggest that the AKC’s criteria for a purebred dog is one which can document “many decades of dogs with a minimum of 3-generation pedigrees.”
I’m not arguing that there should be no new breeds of dog, nor that there aren’t any ethical and careful people out there breeding crosses of various kinds, but my experience is that those people are the minority, and that the vast majority of expensive crossbreeds you see in pet shops and advertised in newspapers are the products of people in it for the money. That often doesn’t leave a lot of space for the good of the dogs.
Thank you all for your replies! Pretty much got what I was asking for
I will say my wife is very allergic to dogs…but one of the reasons she agreed to dog-sit this dog in particular is that she has no reaction to her at all. And her coat is much more “hair like” than “fur like” for whatever that’s worth.
Thank you all for your knowlege and thoughts on this. I feel less ignorant now
I saw an article in Life magazine earlier this fall about the popularity of “doodle” type dogs and, in fact, it was the price that shocked me.
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My family has bred dogs, so of course I’m aware that certain dogs can go for insane prices, but I was shocked to see these price tags and waiting lists on, essentially, mutts.
Pocket Doodles! Oh, that’s too, too funny. I’m pretty sure many of these were attempted soley for the comedic value in their names. C’mon, why else would anyone breed a poodle with a shih-tzu except to call their dog a “Shit-Poo”?
(Actually, I know several Shit-Poos and they’re wonderful creatures. But that name’s gotta go.)
blackhobyah and others pretty much covered everything. I wish that more people understood that a cross of two different breeds of dogs, even if both are purebreds, does not make a new breed and is not worth 1000’s of dollars. It is a mutt.
As for breeding Labs and Poodles for a retriever with a curly coat. There is already an established breed called a Curly Coated Retriever. There’s also the Chesapeake Bay Retriever which also has a slightly curly coat. A new “breed” that doesn’t even breed true for this characterstic all the time is unnecessary.
As the loving human of a Peke-a-Poo, I must say he is the best dog I have ever had. Adorable, smart, well-behaved, and fun. He is 11 and going strong. I am also loving the idea of a Lab/Poodle ( non-shedding) mix. My other dog is a Lab and he is the sole reason we pulled up all the carpets and replaced them with tile.
The CKC is a sham. They will register anything. It is the registry of choice for puppy-millers since the AKC started the DNA testing. If you are going to buy a puppy, do NOT trust a “breeder” who only registers with the CKC. (Unless the “CKC” in question is the Canadian Kennel Club.)
