Dollhouse 3/20

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@JSexton

No fanwank about it. In the kitchen, Ballard said “I don’t want to hurt you.” Echo replied, “I’m counting on it.” She was sent specifically because Ballard would have simply wiped the floor with, say, Sierra or Victor.

Definitely true. Although I’m also convinced that she was sent deliberately to provoke Ballard with the warning. Otherwise, DeWitt’s plan doesn’t make any sense.

We know absolutely that DeWitt wanted the rapist killed by the neighbor. In order for that to happen, she needed Ballard out of the house. This means that at the very least, she needed Echo to delay Ballard.

But what purpose does it serve (beyond justice) for the neighbor to kill the rapist? It gives Ballard a sense that his enemies are real and that he’s in real danger; it simultaneously gives him real reason to trust the neighbor, since his enemies are trying to kill her. That’s exactly the message that Echo gave him.

I can’t see another reason why DeWitt would go to all this trouble. If Echo hadn’t given him that message, he would have fought Echo and been beaten by her–and then what? Would she have run away?

The whole thing ties together too neatly for it not all to be DeWitt’s work.

Daniel

[Contrapuntal]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

If you don’t accept the magic of the premise, there’s probably no point in watching the show.

Where in the premise do the dolls get super powers? I missed it.

@JSexton

No fanwank about it. In the kitchen, Ballard said “I don’t want to hurt you.” Echo replied, “I’m counting on it.” She was sent specifically because Ballard would have simply wiped the floor with, say, Sierra or Victor.

C’mon. He was beating on her like a red-headed stepchild. Why not just submit her?

[Lakai]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

But what purpose does it serve (beyond justice) for the neighbor to kill the rapist? It gives Ballard a sense that his enemies are real and that he’s in real danger; it simultaneously gives him real reason to trust the neighbor, since his enemies are trying to kill her. That’s exactly the message that Echo gave him.

Echo did not need to tell him his friends were in danger for Dewitt’s plan to work. Ballard would get home eventually and figure it out. If anything, Ballard almost got home in time to see his neighbor in action mode.

I can’t see another reason why DeWitt would go to all this trouble. If Echo hadn’t given him that message, he would have fought Echo and been beaten by her–and then what? Would she have run away?

Without the message Echo would have won and framed him by shooting the cop. That was Dewitt’s plan all along. The person who planted the message in Echo wanted Dewitt to think she won, so Echo was probably carrying out Dewitt’s original plan.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Lakai

Echo did not need to tell him his friends were in danger for Dewitt’s plan to work. Ballard would get home eventually and figure it out. If anything, Ballard almost got home in time to see his neighbor in action mode.

Hearing a context that would place his friends in danger gave it a lot more meaning.

Without the message Echo would have won and framed him by shooting the cop. That was Dewitt’s plan all along. The person who planted the message in Echo wanted Dewitt to think she won, so Echo was probably carrying out Dewitt’s original plan.

Except that in such a plan, her elaborate execution of the rapist is meaningless.

Contrapuntal, I’m afraid I don’t understand your question. That IS the premise–that the dolls get every aspect of their skillset replaced, including things like muscle memory and fast twitch muscle fibers and adrenaline responses and neural pathways. I don’t think being a midwife requires quite as many different muscle-memory responses as being a fighter does, but it’ll still require some. It’s a magical premise, soft scifi.

Daniel

[Tanbarkie]

It should also be remembered that the Dolls were specifically chosen as specimens of physical perfection - both in the sexy sense and the athletic sense. And they make some effort to show that the Dolls are constantly exercising while in the Dollhouse. Given that, it seems perfectly believable to me that physically fit Echo + black belt level martial arts training = able to keep up with even the toughest FBI agent in a fight.

I also appreciated that the fights on Dollhouse are choreographed very differently than those on Joss’s previous shows. It’s more brutal, less showy, and generally feels more realistic, so that each hit provokes a stronger reaction from the audience, even if it doesn’t send the opponent flying across the room. Echo slamming Ballard’s legs against that car looked painful, far moreso than watching Faith punch vampires through walls.

[Lakai]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Hearing a context that would place his friends in danger gave it a lot more meaning.

Except that in such a plan, her elaborate execution of the rapist is meaningless.

You think that when Ballard comes home to find a dead guy in his living room he won’t figure out its meaning?

Dewitt had to stop Ballard without him or killing her Doll (the neighbor.) Killing Ballard would draw too much attention to the Dollhouse (since everyone knows that is what Ballard is looking for) and Dewitt doesn’t want to lose her agent. Her plan makes perfect sense without Echo spelling it out for Ballard and giving away even more information.

[kasuo]

@Tanbarkie

I also appreciated that the fights on Dollhouse are choreographed very differently than those on Joss’s previous shows. It’s more brutal, less showy, and generally feels more realistic, so that each hit provokes a stronger reaction from the audience, even if it doesn’t send the opponent flying across the room. Echo slamming Ballard’s legs against that car looked painful, far moreso than watching Faith punch vampires through walls.

It could also be attributed with the moving away from the Hercules or Xena-type of fight scenes that were popular back in the 90s.

Or they got rid of the fight choreographers who worked in Joss first three shows.

[JSexton]

@Contrapuntal

Where in the premise do the dolls get super powers? I missed it.

Because there’s more to be an sudden expert in any physical activity than just gaining memories. Yes, they do yoga, but that doesn’t qualify them to have a dozen years of kung-fu actually turning them into masters. That only works in movies like The Matrix. I mean, say someone with an eidetic memory reads the complete works of Bruce Lee and Rorion Gracie, would you expect them to be able to suddenly defeat Randy Cotoure?

C’mon. He was beating on her like a red-headed stepchild. Why not just submit her?

You weren’t watching the same show I was. She was giving at least as good as she got, and won the fight.

[SenorBeef]

It’s believable that a doll could know kung fu - after all, they’re copying and replicating the neural patterns of someone that does, it’s more than just the equivelant of reading about it. That doesn’t change the fact that a 200 pound fit man who is apparently a skilled fighter is likely to get his ass kicked by a 105 pound woman even if she were a capable fighter. But Joss loves his female empowerment girl ass kicker stuff.

I don’t see why the idea is implausible though. “Muscle memory” isn’t actually in the muscles, right? It’s just the term we use for being so well practiced at something it’s nearly instinctual.

[Idlewild]

Eh. I wouldn’t want to have to dig up a cite, but I did read something recently about research about repetitive tasks and their effects on myelin building. That puts muscle memory developed through practice in the realm of something physiological/neurological.

I’m prepared to allow almost infinite suspension of disbelief about the dolls’ skills, though, because I find the show fun and it doesn’t bother me. Also, I really am loving the fight choreography.

[foolsguinea]

“Muscle memory” is largely in the nervous system, but it’s more or less hardwired in. While your brain does sort of have “software” (memory), it’s not designed to be wiped with a magnet like a floppy disk. In real life, you learn & habituate skills by repeated reinforcement. Creating those connections isn’t something I expect to do with a glorified magnetic field & handwavium.

I like the show, though.

[Odesio]

@Xan

My fanwank is that he didn’t want to hurt Echo/Caroline. He figured the beefy security guards could take what he could dish out but not a 110 pound woman. So he held back a little.

Then we weren’t watching the same fight. Ballard put some serious hurt on Echo.
Odesio

[PopeJewish]

I agree this was by far the best episode, and I loved the fight scene. for your information a trained 110lbs girl could put the hurt on a bigger guy (though it’s not likely, it’s still possible), and they fought reasonably realistically, with Echo being all about kicks and punchs, hitting weak spots, and Ballard grabbing her and tossing her into stuff a lot. I thought it was quite well done. Still, Ballard would have wiped the floor with most of the other dolls but got weak on Echo.

I liked a lot of the developments in this episode. Whedon definitely has me hooked again, the SOB…

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@PopeJewish

I agree this was by far the best episode, and I loved the fight scene. for your information a trained 110lbs girl could put the hurt on a bigger guy (though it’s not likely, it’s still possible

I do wonder about this and claims to the contrary seem odd to me. Sure, in a wrestling match, size will win out nearly every time–but in a punch-and-kick match, it seems like the ability to dodge, coupled with the ability to land a blow, will be fairly important.

And “muscle memory” is my sloppy shorthand for building up the specific muscles necessary to, say, land a roundhouse kick powerfully, or climb a sheer rock wall. Those are different sets of muscles.

[simster]

Two thoughts that come to mind -

The timing of Echo’s message - basically came at the exact point it needed to - seems if her entire goal was to deliver a message - the fight was superfolous.

The customer this week - had a very specific need/fantasy for his doll - seems they were able to create the personality of his girlfriend - makes you wonder if they have the ability to map the brain post -death - or if it was just “make her giddy and surprised”.

[Kaio]

Hrmmmm…

I like how they came right out and said that what the Dollhouse does for “legitimate” assignments ain’t any different from Hearn’s raping Sierra.

I’m still torn with whether or not the message from the insider was legit or not. It would be a good way to misdirect Ballard: give him just enough truth for him to believe it, and strip him of any legitimate authority he had (his badge), while simultaneously keeping him from being so angry about it that he goes all pitbull on them (he has a mole! he doesn’t need the badge!). In the meantime, he occupies himself chasing wild geese looking for a “higher purpose” that doesn’t exist, while the Dollhouses take care of business.

Granted that Boyd distracted Topher while in the middle of Echo’s programming – and he’d be a good candidate for the mole, perhaps one of two, given that he’s an ex-cop and sure seems to care more than anyone else there. But Echo’s rogue program also implied that Mellie would be taken out – and yet she was never in any actual danger, being a sleeper Active and all (although I suppose the mole might not know that, or has his/her own reasons for wanting Ballard to keep quiet).

Except that in such a plan, her elaborate execution of the rapist is meaningless.

Well, it sends the message to Ballard that telling people what he’s found out about the Dollhouse puts them in danger… good reason for him not to tell anyone, which keeps the information leakage under control. So under the apparent plan, they frame him for a shooting, which strips him of his badge, his authority, and his resources, ending or at least severely hampering his investigation, while simultaneously keeping him quiet about what he already knows, plus getting rid of a liability (Hearn) and keeping their sleeper agent on duty and watching him.

On the other hand, maybe the mole is real. Topher’s assistant seems a bit too obvious (plus they’ve already stated that there are levels of “security clearence” in the Dollhouse – Topher had been told Alpha was dead, for example – and I doubt she has high enough clearance to know much of what’s going on), but Boyd is a possibility. I actually think DeWitt could possibly be a candidate for the mole – she’s in a good position to pull strings and play double agent, but they’ve made it clear yet again that she’s not the one in charge. Maybe listening to Hearn tell her that what she did to the Actives was no better than raping them pushed her conscience from uneasy to guilty, and she wants to get out. Also, DeWitt clearly knows that Echo is not running strictly to program, but apparently likes it that way, in spite of the whole deal with Alpha. Echo not only remembered the mogul assignment, but wanted to finish it, and DeWitt made it happen.

I also wonder now how Alpha is or is not connected to the mole on the inside. Do they know about each other? Are they working together?

Interesting throw-away lines: the governor denies that the Dollhouse exists or that anyone is investigating. Then, Sierra’s last engagement was for the governor’s niece.

Also, I really want to see what happens in the Attic, dammit. Are they put in cryo-storage or what? It was offered as a solution distinct from killing Hearn, so apparently death is not involved.

[Max_the_Immortal]

Oh, I have an idea! Maybe Ballard normally could overpower Echo, but he tore his stitches earlier when he was beating up the goons.

Or we could just say that if Ballard gets to be inhumanly resilient, Echo gets to be inhumanly resilient, too.

[Irishman]

Something is clearly up. Do you recall the episode where Ballard was kickboxing with a guy, gitting wailed on and thumped hard, then came back including an impossible jump to knee strike? Yeah, somethings up there.

@The Controvert

But I’m still confused about the scene from an earlier episode where Dominic pumped the religious leader full of lead. Maybe he just enjoys violence and inflicting pain? (Although I sure enjoyed it when he slapped Hearn upside the head.)

As I understand it, he went in to assure that Echo got trapped in the fire. But then why did he shoot the religious leader insead of letting him shoot Echo? Anyway, he failed, because Boyd showed up.

@Evil Captor

It was implied that governments were covertly supporting the Dollhouses. Why would governments be interested

Because governments are made up of rich and powerful people, the very people that can afford and want to use the Dollhouses?

@simster

The customer this week - had a very specific need/fantasy for his doll - seems they were able to create the personality of his girlfriend - makes you wonder if they have the ability to map the brain post -death - or if it was just “make her giddy and surprised”.

I was wondering about that, too. How did they make a profile of the dead wife? He wanted the Doll to have a specific personality, to be his wife finding out he was finally financially sound. How do they create her personality from scratch? Have an extensive interview with him, then go searching for elements in their database?

@Kaio

I also wonder now how Alpha is or is not connected to the mole on the inside. Do they know about each other? Are they working together?

Echo’s message said this was the first communication. It implies the mole did not know about the other messages that Ballard received from we think Alpha.

[Kaio]

@Irishman

I was wondering about that, too. How did they make a profile of the dead wife? He wanted the Doll to have a specific personality, to be his wife finding out he was finally financially sound. How do they create her personality from scratch? Have an extensive interview with him, then go searching for elements in their database?

I would guess this is exactly what they do. It’s only a one-afternoon engagement, a few hours maybe, so it’s not like the personality has to stand up to intense long-term scrutiny to be exactly like his wife in every niggling detail. Get the broad strokes and a few of the most obvious details and it’s good.

It just kinda sank in what Dominick wasn’t talking about regarding DeWitt’s “exit strategy.” That’s not a good place to get fired from, is it? :eek:

[MEBuckner]

We’ve definitely had a major improvement in the show, here.

One thing–You’re the dedicated FBI agent. You realize your cute, sexy, kinda naive neighbor with whom you’ve just recently gotten “neighborly” with* is in deadly danger. You rush home to rescue her…and find out she’s very neatly broken the Bad Guy’s neck. Did I mention you’ve spent years obsessively investigating an organization which downloads personalities into people–which you’ve just had very convincingly demonstrated to you can include turning Hot Babes into Ninja Assassins? You think he’s going to put two and two together there?

*And I’m glad the two of them didn’t actually buy that “Oh, we mustn’t, we should just be friends” line, if only because it would be kinda repetitive of the whole Simon-Kaylee dynamic from Firefly.