Stand back everyone, I think grendel’s head is about to explode.
It’s actually quite simple. Lee implies that part of her hatred of Disney is that it goes against the nuclear family image.
Some of us see a huge contradiction with this belief in comparison to Lee and Kelly’s lifestyle.
Lee gives us a blow by blow description of Kelly’s wonderful woman sperm swimming up her wonderful woman vaginal to colide with her wonderful woman egg.
When asked for clarification of this “woman sperm”, we are met with “I’ll send you a letter from my psychiatrist” and “it’s complex”.
If they would just stop talking in circles and making obscure statements that can easily be misconstrued, then maybe they would stop having these issues come up on the board.
Out of this whole train-wreck this is the point that stands out to you? You have just given me my best laugh of the day, thank you. I mean that in the best way…
I think you nailed it, MLC. Must be something in the air.
Jarbaby KellyM’s response was clearly directed specifically toward Mr Cynical’s antagonistic description of her as “delusional” and “a MAN, baby”. Frankly, I agree that his post probably exposed ignorance of the complexity of gender identity, though it is always possible that he is aware and was simply trying to be hurtful. While I think both lee and KellyM have overreacted to many things in this thread, that is not one of them. stofsky
I have only the posts in this thread to go on–can you please quote for me some passages where lee outlined her objection to Disney as grounded in “poor treatment of the traditional idea of the mother in the family.” Also, once you have done that can you explain to me how lee’s family situation is in some manner deficient in the “traditional idea of a mother”. All I know about her family is that it will have three parents, one biological mother, and one parent who will be a stay-at-home caregiver. I figure the odds are 2-to-1 that said caregiver will be socially recognized as a female, so I don’t see any necessary lack of a traditional mother figure. Or is your argument predicated upon the idea that a “traditional idea of a mother” can only exist in a “traditional 2 parent household”.
Mighty_Girl
To my reading the “complexity” was clearly raised in regards to Mr Cynical’s attack on KellyM’s gender identity. It was not raised in response to somebody, “asking her to explain”. And it was offered afterlee’s clarification that "Pre-op MTF transsexuals may [produce sperm]"
Surely at that point everyone had to be clear that nobody was claiming sperm production from an individual with XX chromosomes?
RedFury
I agree with you that the child will suffer more complications in life from a non-traditional upbringing than from exposure to Disney, but I hardly think that point is germane. I doubt that either lee or her partners harbor any illusions that teh sorld at large will invariably offer kindness and support for their child. That hardly makes it unreasonable for them to decide that they do not wish support the Disney corporation or expose their child to Disney products.
To me, the whole topic smacks of “Disney’s wholesome and you’re not”, though I certainly do not ascribe such a subtext to all posters who have addressed the issue.
grendel72
The down side of taking a stance is that one has no control over whom he ends up standing beside.
Now, in my own opinion, this is all about Lee & Kelly making a big show out of how superior they are as human beings. Go ahead and forbid your child from whatever you want, but when you get so high & mighty about it, and make such a big show of your dissaproval of Disney to anyone and everyone, well, we know the score. Its a pretty arbitrary thing to forbid, but, again, its your business. But really, your holier than thou attitude is obnoxious.
All parents have to make choices about what to allow every day. Believe me, the choice about what videotapes to let them watch is a pretty minor decision in the scheme of things. What to allow and not allow in terms of their behavior is tougher, and more meaningful. I’ve seen many parents forbid this and that on the grounds that it will turn their kid into a little monster (both from a conservative viewpoint and a P.C. viewpoint, like yours) but I have had a great deal of contact with toddlers and little kids and their personalities don’t seem to bear any relationship to the videos and books they are exposed to. As far as entertainment goes, if they like it and its age appropriate and it doesn’t scare them, its ok in moderation, is my philosophy. The best thing you can do as a parent of a little kid is give them a happy childhood. That’s just my opinion, though. Others may be less concerned with a happy childhood and more concerned with molding the perfect human, and that’s their right.
But stop kidding yourselves. You’re just trying to show everyone how thoughtfull and superior you are. Thing is, no one really cares if you forbid Disney, and if someone gives you a Disney something or other you can say no thanks, or return it, or discard it. That’s what EVERYONE ELSE does in these situations. For instance, we were given earrings for our 3 year old girl by someone who obviously thought she’d be getting her ears pierced shortly. Well, no she frigging won’t. But we didn’t make a big deal about how the gift was terrible. we just accepted it, and put it away somewhere. Putting on a big show of your dissaproval of Disney does nothing for your child. You’re only trying to show everyone how much you hate Disney, like anyone cares.
I’ll ask you, too. Since all I know about lee and her stance on Disney is here in this thread, can you show me where she implies that her objection is based upon Disney’s portrayal of “the nuclear family image”.
The claim is that Disney hates or refuses to value mothers because they typically aren’t present for the child characters, who are either orphans or only have a father. lee endorsed that criticism in the MPSIMS thread that spawned this one, linked it the OP.
Sure - in reading the replies to my post I see that lines I read as immaterial were what people based their statements on - natural enough as we bring at least as much to an argument as the other person does. shrug
RedFury, Max Torque, stofsky: Sure sure sure - this is a public message board and all that. Point made. I’m a little put off by the zealousness with which lee’s parenting choices are being attacked. Again - it’s Disney for chrissakes - and while their defense may not be the most airtight, the conviction is. So what do you have invested in picking at it more? You can to your heart’s content, certainly!
Beyond which - the whole “Ban Disney/3 Parents=Dichotomy” argument is soooooooo close to soft-bigotry that I’ve had to be most painstaking in reading the posts of those who support it, and make a concerted effort to read them in good will.
For one thing, to legitimize that argument it seems that you have to place the blame for victimization on the child or its parents, not the victimizers.
For another, it seems to imply that they have somehow used up some kind of wierdness chit in being both (For lack of a better expression) sexually alternative and contra-Disney.
And I just can’t stand the way that argument sounds if you substitute “Gay”, “Black”, or “Jew” for “3 Parents”. I’m not saying that children of any of these couples don’t get an undue amount of shit, but to use that argument to undermine a someone’s desire to eschew Disney from their house seems reprehensible.
I come from white american stock; can I ban Disney in my household without catching shit for it, then? Or rather, does my stance gain any measure of validity because I’m not in a transgendered relationship??
You can ban Disney without catching shit for it provided you:
-don’t rant in the Pit about another poster making a fairly innocuous (but snarky) comment about it (and that comment really had nothing to do with Disney or her family).
-Compare your Disney ban with other posters religious convictions.
-When asked for reasons why you’ve instituted this ban, give answers that don’t hold water, appeal to your authority (“cus I said so” works with your kids, not the SDMB) and insult others.
Like Mighty_Girl, I was under the impression that Kelly_M and lee were co-workers/friends until stofsky’s post, which didn’t change my opinion on the OP one iota. IMHO, this whole thing has little to do with Disney or their “status”, for lack of a better word.
That claim I can understand. Surely it is clear that it is a different thing from “poor treatment of the traditional idea of the mother in the family” and “it goes against the nuclear family image.”
I can’t see any way that “I don’t like that there is no mother present in so many Disney stories” can be seen as contradictory, or even moderately dissonant, to lee’s family situation. It is only when the issue is framed as one of “traditional families” that the hint of dissonance appears (and even then I think we fall short of contradiction).
MLC, really, NOBODY is attackinglee’s parenting choices. As has been pointed out time and time and time again, as a parent, you get to call the shots, no matter how strange they are. What started this thread off, was the suggestion (in another thread by Ukulele Ike) that good intentions have a funny habit of falling by the wayside when you are confronted with a real-life breathing kid. lee took offense to that, and thus this thread was born.
The ‘Aren’t New Parents Funny’ sentiment was continued by others (including myself) but there was no ATTACK upon lee’s right to deny Disney stuff to her kid. But there was a lot of confusion about just WHAT it was about Disney that was considered so offensive. And to my knowledge, that has yet to be addressed. Sure, lee does not need to explain herself to anyone, but given that she DOES have such strong feelings about Disney, I certainly would love to be given an insight into that.
Some posters have pointed out what appears to be a contradiction between the lifestyle chosen by lee and KellyM and their abhorence of Disney. It has not become a condemnation of their lifestyle at all, rather more a puzzled bemusement that they can hold such diverse ‘views’ concurrently.
Yes, this thread has derailed somewhat…and I’m still here patiently waiting for a treatise on ‘The Evils of Disney’.
