And who will be to blame? The people who are obnoxious, of course.
I don’t blame my parents, not at all. They embraced something very good, after all. (Classical music is good. At least I think so.) They raised us to like what they liked, and they didn’t embrace stuff they thought was crap. What is so bad about that?
My parents were never the problem. The problem came from the uptight, neurotic folks who were either threatened or appalled that a 10-year-old kid know who Copland and Beethoven are. That was the problem. My parents were never obnoxious to anyone else about their musical tastes. It was always the other way around.
I don’t see why anyone (lee, my parents, anyone) should feel pressured to change their standards, merely because other people will be obnoxious boors who are rude, offensive and appallingly ignorant. Damn. The people who are rude, offensive and appallingly ignorant are the ones who need to clean up their act, don’t you think?
So, Fenris, zev’s rules are not arguable with and must be accepted because they’re religious, but ours, because you can argue with it, is presumptively invalid and can be argued with at will.
What a ridiculous position. Do you want your children subject to random gifts of porn because your opinion that exposing small children to pornography is bad can be argued with, and even “disposed of” given the right convolutions of the facts? Because that’s the obvious conclusion I come to. Perhaps there’s something wrong with your argument.
And since when were parents prohibited from having taste?
If you want to have a substantive debate on the merits of Disney animation, I would suggest doing so in Cafe Society – in a few months, after all the steam from this train wreck has condensed out.
So, overall, do you think the obnoxiousness, boorishness, rudeness, and offensiveness you experienced were worth it, or would you rather have heard a little Aerosmith now and then?
it was my impression that there was more than one poster who claimed that the child would ‘suffer’ etc, I know one said fucked up etc. and I do recall one suggesting that they believed that because lee/KellyM were so strident about this subject that they’d have other things as well, therefore blah blah blah.
and I still disagree. Things that I believe (based on my experiences professional and personal) that have serious consequences for the child include:
assorted stances of caregivers including but not limited to “I won’t let my child watch TV”, “they must be vegetarian”, “they must keep Kosher”, “they can only watch Barney”, “They must never watch Barney”, " they can only play with gender appropriate toys" , “they can never play with toys commonly associated with their particular gender”, “no Disney”, “only Disney” nope.
Kelly. Happy to answer your question/comments, maybe you can return the favor.
I said that Zev’scan’t be argued with. “I believe my Deity said so.” is not a position that’s falsifiable. Not that Zev’s were right or wrong. How can you argue with that? Tell him that “No, you don’t believe it.”?
My hypothetical kid will not be allowed to get gifts of porn. My reason? “Because I am his (hypothetical) parent and said so.”. Note that my statement does not incoporate the kind of wild ignorance that lee’s post did. If I was trying to use lee’s method, I would have said something like “No, because 91 out of 127 childern who receive porn get arrested later in life for spitting in hamburgers while working fast food”. And I would hope to be challenged if I made such a statement.
See the difference?
Taste? Fine. Don’t you see a difference between: “We don’t like Disney and don’t want our kid to watch it.” and “Disney stuff has a sameness that Warner Brothers doesn’t”*? One’s a matter of
taste and one is obviously wrong…or at least debatable.
I eagerly await your answer to my questions, especially the one about “If Disney is to be banned because, as Lee said, Disney once had about 3 racist minutes in Fantasia, will all movies and cartoons by Warner Brothers be banned for far worse offenses?”
And to your final paragraph, please. You’re an old-timer. Please tell me I’m misunderstanding and you’re not saying that statements made in The Pit can’t be challenged.
I had Aerosmith foisted on me anyway. Remember? I mentioned that schoomates blared music in my ear anyway, after they knew I didn’t want to listen to it and didn’t like it. And, dare I mention, it never occurred to me to blare music in their ears? I never would have dared to do such a thing.
I’m also curious—why did I have to listen to Aerosmith in order to avoid crap and harrassment? Why? I mean, it’s obviously going to be something I’d hear now and then anyway (passing by other people’s radios, etc.) but why should people go out of their way to foist it upon me? Because that’s what some people did.
So, what exactly is your point, anyway? What would you have had my parents do? Because they had the audacity (the nerve) to listen to something different, people were assholes. Rude assholes. What would you have preferred we do? Squelch any unique tastes we had, just so we would avoid harrassment? How far should we all take this sort of thing, just in order to avoid crap from other people? How much of our personal standards should we have to give up?
Fenris, all I’m saying is that I have no desire to debate our distaste for Disney. Nor do I like being told that we’re not entitled to make rules for our house (whether justified or not) and that it’s rude of us to expect others to respect our preferences when giving our child gifts.
To use your approach: Our child will not receive gifts of Disney movies and merchandising related thereto because we say so. Based on your position, that’s the end of the the discussion. Unfortunately, it seems like a couple hundred other Dopers don’t agree with you. The only reason justification was offered is that it was demanded.
Unique tastes are one thing. Sequestering your kid from Disney or rock and roll/rhythm and blues/bubblegum music/whatever is something else.
When you do your best to make your child different from the rest of the children, you can expect problems. Your posts are evident of that. You experienced the angst of the outsider.
Children are all about peer pressure and group acceptance–regardless of what their parents do. If they (the kids) are different enough, their childhood lives will probably be less than “fond memories”–evidently like yours.
GreenBean - see above post by Rysdad as example of what I was arguing about.
Rysdad - kids will tease other kids. They will find differences. they will exploit them. I don’t think you’re really suggesting that we as parents should take a poll of prevailing attitudes towards common things and adopt them as our own, so that our children will become more of a homgeneous mass of sameness.
So, these folks don’t want Disney in their home. Other parents raise their children w/strict dietary restrictions, some because of religions, some because of personal stances (vegetarian for example). I believe you’re out on a very weak limb to suggest that no parent should make restrictions in their childs life based on (whatever criteria is important to that parent), because if the child appears different they will get teased.
This is actually one of our big reasons for disliking Disney, although it’s more on a visceral than a rational level. Disney is a icon of homogenized America. We think there are so many better things to expose our child to that we’d prefer to keep her from being Disney-fied early in life so that she grows up being somewhat distinct from all the other children out there.
Although, admittedly, being raised in a three-parent family will probably have that effect anyway.
Once again, my parents never outright banned such music from our home. They just didn’t embrace it. They encouraged (strongly) other kinds of music.
To be honest, do you know what cemented my resolve to not listen to pop music as a child? Not my parents. (Though of course they were delighted that I didn’t listen to it, and no doubt relieved that they didn’t have to listen to it in their house.) It was the obnoxious, close-minded attitude of those around me. The pressure. The outrage. The “but you must listen to this!” The “you listen to that Bach crap?” I mean, seriously. Why should such tactics make me warm up to the idea of pop music?
Sigh. Yeah, in some things. Not in everything. And you know what? I don’t regret it. My parents exposed me to something good. I am grateful to them. I have a rich heritage of wonderful music that will (in my opinion) never go out of style. I have fond memories of the “guess the composer” games, the Hollywood Bowl concerts (where I saw many a famous conductor perform—memories I still cherish), and volunteering to answer phones at the local Classical music station’s annual membership drive. Lots of fun. Good times.
Eh. Screw the lemmings who can’t take a little difference in those around them. While I do have some not-so-fond memories from my childhood, I learned a lot about human nature early on. And I learned that sometimes, I could “fight ignorance”, just a little. I eventually started to challenge those who had such a problem with my music by asking them, “So, which Classical composer do you specifically object to? Which one of their Symphonies do you dislike?” That was fun. Of course, none of these kids had ever heard any of the music they detested. Some of them started to shut up about it. Some seemed slightly enlightened about their own prejudices.
I’ll ask you again: How much of our personal standards should we have to give up in order to avoid getting harrassed? I guarantee you, the ONLY way I would have avoided harrassment as a child would be to not listen to Classical, proclaim my hatred for it, and only listen to pop music. Do you think I should have done that?
What’s wrong with Aerosmith? I’ve seen them over 50 times. Must be all those Disney movies my parents took me to see in my formative years. ; )
I have 3 teenagers lee. And here’s my best advice, as trite as it sounds. Hope for the best, but plan for the worst. Once the kid slides out of the uterus, your control over her lessens with each passing moment. Not to say you can’t, and shouldn’t, shape her character and behavior, but there’s only so much you can do hun. Otherwise it’s like shovelling shit against the tide.
My grandmother always told me to pick my battles. And DAMN. Was she right.
No, I’m not suggesting that. Well, maybe I’m advising caution.
Hell, yosemitebabe didn’t just get teased, she got harrassed.
As I said before, pick your battles. If it’s important enough to you as a parent, OK then. Just keep in mind that, although kids will tease other kids, kids tease outsiders a lot more.
First, you have the absolute right to set limits on what your kid does or dosent watch/eat/etc…,no arguements from me.
I noticed someting you mentioned earler, however, and I was curious: What’s wrong with Tim Allen? I was just wondering what your objection to him was, it’s perfectly O.K. for you to have such an objection.
and every kid is an outsider in some fashion at some time. Every kid. Some things you can control, others you cannot. My son got harassed terribly because he wore glasses (from age 4 - 14) He was the only kid in his entire school who needed glasses. He got kicked, teased, shoved, picked on etc.
And, had he not worn glasses (and here’s the point you’re not seeing, I think) it would have been something else. Did I like him getting harassed? nope. If I could have made his eyes better w/o the glasses would I have done it? yes. Am I dead certain that he’d have experienced teasing no matter what I’d done You bet.
Kids will tease/harass and other wise be absolutely jerky to each other based on any number of criteria. Some things you can control. other things you cannot. I raised my son based on issues that were important to me. I had that right. so do lee/KellyM, even if it means that the child may get some amount of teasing.
You don’t have to give up any personal standards. I get the distinct feeling, though, that it wasn’t your singular enjoyment of Tchaikovsy that set you apart. And, I also don’t think that a sea change in your attitude toward pop would’ve made all that much difference.
You’ve said you’re happy with your choices, and I say so be it.
Just curious…will your kids be allowed to listen to anything other than classical music?
I’ll ask it again: Do you think I should have given up Classical music in order to not be harrassed? Because that would have been the only way it would have stopped. I would have had to stop listening to Classical (or listen to it in secret, and never admit it) I would have had to tell my friends that I hated it, and I would have had to start buying pop music and become knowledgeable about it. Do you think I should have done that?
Starting when I was 11 years old, I started making my own money on a regular basis (babysitting). So, at a relatively young age, I had control over what I bought. Except for the one Jethro Tull album (which had a variation of a Bach tune that I very much liked) I bought only Classical or orchestral music during my formative years. My parents did not control what I bought or listened to (they said nothing about the Jethro Tull album).
Why do you think I continued to put up with the harrassment, even though I could have prevented it by “faking” my musical tastes? Why didn’t I change my musical tastes? It would have been so much easier had I tried to mold myself and alter every aspect of my personality and personal tastes in order to prevent crap. Do you think I deserved what I got because I wouldn’t bend or change? I am all curiosity to discover what you think about this.
I don’t think lee and KellyM can force their kid to dislike Disney. But, if the harrassment and outrage is similar to what I got as a kid, I don’t think the kid will blame their parents for the crap they get. They’ll blame the people who are behaving like complete jerks.