If you are tipping two bucks a drink, NotWithoutRage, then yes, that’s a perfectly acceptable tip. Bravo.
A lesson I learned when I became an adult is that many people do not fear being a narc. When I was young, a narc was the lowest form of scum crawling on the Earth and nobody wanted to be one. Many adults do not feel that way.
If you spat in the food, you probably would feel the need to brag about what you did. That person turns you in and big, big trouble starts. Locally, someone was turned in for putting snot in the food and he went to jail.
You may laugh about the idea of someone turning you in, but be careful.
Screw that. In 7 years of dancing I never walked out with less than $40 unless I left early. $5 dances??? No fucking way. I don’t think I would have done it if it was like that here. If the boys wanted to see my nekkid booty they had to shell of lots of $$$.
Getting crap in your food is a risk you take whenever you choose to eat somewhere that 16 year olds have full access to your food out of your sight.
Especially if they don’t respect your profession:
Well, since the first of those responses was mine, let me clarify that my point (illustrated by the rest of my post) did pretty much have to do with “equal work” (specifically in terms of the fact that the server is doing the same amount of work for your discounted food than he/she would if you paid full price).
For the record, though, I do see your point in asking (because the system does seem incongruent), and Ender’s right–you should be able to ask the question without being labeled a “cheap bastid.”
So maybe I can put it another way that’ll help you understand the justification for the incongruency (no snarkiness intended, here) . . .
Several posters here have suggested that if waitpeople are going to complain about having to make a living from tips (because the wage is so low), and about not making enough in tips (for various reasons NOT having to do with poor service) then they should find alternate employment. The thing is, a good number of waitpeople do choose their employment based on monetary factors, namely
a) the popularity, and
b) the menu prices
at a given restaurant.
(I haven’t waited tables for years, but I’m still in the habit, when dining out at a new place, of looking around and making an “assessment” of how much money the servers probably make. I might, for example, think, “Wow, this place is packed, and the dinners aren’t cheap–our waitress is raking in $25 on our little table (of two) alone, so I bet these servers do pretty well!” And, if I were still waiting tables, I might consider applying for a job at such a place, with the idea that I could make good money.
Of course, there are other factors to be considered–usually the more expensive restaurants require a LOT more in the way of service, so you often serve smaller sections than you would at, say, Denny’s, AND there are probably more “backup” people (bussers, food runners, etc.) on the floor, which may mean more people to tip out at the end of the night. Plus there is most likely a rigid server dress code (involving such nitpicks as how much starch should be used on one’s crisp white shirt), which means that you’ll be shelling out $$$ to keep yourself in a uniform as well. Not to mention that a place like this probably won’t hire you if you don’t have significant experience at similar restaurants, so it’s not like you can just walk in and get hired. But overall, if you manage to land a job like that, there is money to be had. Me, I usually went for upper-middle-of-the road places–decent (not expensive) prices, a more casual atmosphere, and a more relaxed dress code, but still hipsky-whipsky enough to draw a good crowd of good tippers.
I once worked at a place where there was a waiting list of people who wanted to wait tables there, because it was a popular place with decently-priced menu items, and if you were a server (for another restaurant) who came there to eat, you could pretty much see that if you got a job–and did a good job–there, you could make decent money. But I digress, sort of.)
Enter the 2-for-1 dinner coupon.
Now suddenly the “good restaurant” job the server was psyched to get, because he figured (based on his observations as a customer there) on roughly $1,000 in sales per night (and the appropriate amount in tips) has now become the equivalent of a job at Denny’s (not knocking Denny’s, mind you, but that wasn’t the job he applied for). He’s finally worked his way up to a 4-star restaurant, and is doing a good job, but is still making 2-star tips because people are tipping on discounted prices. (Granted, 4-star places don’t usually offer coupons, and most of the patrons would probably tip well anyway, but this little vignette is for illustrative purposes only.)
I guess what I’m saying is no different than what others have been saying–a variation on the “equal work” argument, and in some ways a variation on the idea of servers “expecting” tips for good service. However, what if it were another kind of job? What if you worked, for example, as a magazine editor. An upper-level opening at Newsweek comes up, and Hurrah! You land it! This is going to mean great things for you and your family, because now you’re expecting to pull in around $75,000 a year (note: I have NO idea how much Newsweek editors make, but work with me) based on the salary research you’ve done.
Only, oops! The magazine’s parent company has decided to offer free subscriptions in a widespread campaign to drum up more subscribers. Now they’ll be churning out twice the magazines (which will contain more enticing stories, written in part by you), but will still be raking in the same amount of money, which means that they won’t be able to pay you that $75K salary–instead, you’ll be making $38K. Still nothing to sneeze at, sure, but there goes your dream of paying off your student loans (for the education that landed you this gig) this year, which is part of the reason you wanted this job in the first place . . .
It’s hard to draw an adequate analogy, here, but if you’re still even reading this thread, doreen, does this help at all?
Evidentially it isn’t difficult.
I am certain that a Google search would bring up many cases, but here are just a few of many that I found on The Smoking Gun.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/food/food.shtml
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/food2/food2.html
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/food/buncombe1.shtml
Dude, Glory,
What the hell is your problem? This is the second time you’ve misinterpreted quotes from me. The first time, you totally misunderstood what I said. I was speaking honestly, and you turned it into sarcasm. The second, you attributed a quote to me when I didn’t say it. That person was asking me that question. I was not the one asking it. I answered it, the same way you did (although not as specific).
I don’t know why you’re doing this, but it’s really starting to irritate me. Knock it off. :mad:
I’ve read this thread all the way through and what bothers me is the attitude towards people who don’t tip to server’s expectations. There doesn’t seem to be allowance for ignorance, forgetfulness, or any other mitigating factor. If you don’t tip at least 15% for adequate service then you’re a bastard. Period. If you use the rule of “double the tax” and you had a coupon, then you’re a bastard because the tax is on the sale price, not the menu price. Fuck the fact that your method works the rest of the time, you didn’t adjust it for this one when you apparently should have. You are a cheapskate bastard who deserves to have underpoured drinks, various unhealthy things in your food or at very least you deserve an apathetic server.
If you pay at the counter(think cafeteria-style dining) and don’t remember to include the tip when they ring you up(before you even sit down or SEE your server) and you don’t have cash on you, paid via credit card at the counter, to leave after the meal then you’re a bastard. You’re a cheapskate tightwad who deserves to have toilet water in your next refill.
If you’re a poor college student who scrimps and saves to get a pizza one night when you need to be studying instead of worrying about cooking for yourself or cleaning your dishes so you can fix your own dinner and you’ve got enough money to cover the price of the pizza but not enough for a tip for the driver then you’re a bastard who better check each bite carefully next time to be sure each of those pepperoni slices are really pepperoni. It’s what you deserve. No decent human being ever gets in such a situation and if they do they should damn well motherfucking go hungry rather than stiff the delivery driver.
And apparently I’m a cheap bastard too because I have a problem with the American custom of tipping and the way it places further costs on the customer to figure out how much the appropriate tip is as well as the adversarial system it creates between server and customer. We’re all losers in this system folks. No winners.
Enjoy,
Steven
Well, it may have (and I never disputed that it was the same amount of work) but you, at least, didn’t accuse me of being cheap because I asked a question and act as if there was no incongruity, nor do I remember that post calling customers who tipped on the discounted price “cheap” without even allowing for the possibility that (like me) they had never heard of a rule that the tip should be on the undiscounted price.
Actually, no- probably because I’ve had a different analogy in my head all along (and I always understood why servers would be disappointed by being tipped on the discounted price) But perhaps by me giving mine, you’ll understand me better. Many salespeople are paid by commission. That means they get paid based on their sales .They generally are only paid minimum wage if their commissions over a period of time (a week, a pay period, a month), not a single shift, don’t leave them earning an average of minimum wage over the time period. They are taxed on every dime of commission they get . If the commission rate is 10%, and the item goes on sale or has the price permanently lowered, they get 10% of the lowered price ( or less, because sometimes the rate gets lowered for sale items) . People take these jobs because if they are successful, they can earn way more than they would at an hourly or salaried job. If they are not successful, they don’t stay in the business long. I’ve never heard of commissioned sales people complaining about only getting a $10 commission on what would have been a $200 sale before the item was discounted, since both sales require the same amount of work. And the reason they don’t complain, in my experience, is because that they know, sooner or later (maybe even the same day) there will be a sale involving no more work that will earn them a much larger commission.
It seems to me that the same “averaging out” would apply to waitstaff, and in fact, someone (maybe you?) acknowleged that earlier. I mean, if I’m a server, and I’m going to tip out and be taxed based on me averaging 15% in tips, and so many people both use two-fer coupons and tip based on the discounted price that overall (not for a single table or even a single shift), I make half as much as I expected to, I’m going to quit. But if that many people tip on the discounted price , I don’t see how tipping on the undiscounted price can be called “standard” and perhaps it’s the expectation that was unrealistic. And if it’s only a table or two tipping on the discounted price or if it’s only one night a week, and I still get the amount I expected over time, why would I be complaining? If I expect to earn 15% overall, does it matter if I earn 15% from each table or if I earn a combination of tips above and below 15% that averages out to 15%?
I think this is where I see the disconnect- it seems that some servers (not all- not even all of the ones who are disappointed by lower tips than they expected) want to take two systems of being paid
-
the hourly or salaried system, where you are paid a set amount to either do a certain task or be present a certain number of hours-the Newsweek editor neither gets an automatic raise when circulation goes up, nor an automatic drop when circulation drops, but she will do the same amount of work either way, The K-Mart cashier doesn’t earn more in her 8 hour shift on Wed when she checks out $3000 worth of merchandise than she did in her 8 hour shift on Tuesday when she only checked out $1500 worth. ( Tipping on the undiscounted price because it’s the same amount of work is most like this system)
-
and the commission system,where you are paid based on how much you sell, as long as it comes to the minimum wage over some period of time.If you sell $5000 worth of goods at a 10% commission, you earn $500, whether was a single 4 hour shift’s sales or a whole 40 hour week’s sales (Tipping twice as much for the $20 steak as for the $10 burger in the same restaurant, or tipping the same percentage at a buffet as in a place with table service is most like this system)
take the advantages from each, the disadvantages from neither, and call customers “cheap” if the customers don’t know about or don’t agree with the servers’ desires. As I said, I can understand wanting it both ways- I’d love it if I was got my salary and got paid more for doing a better job or more work or working longer hours in a particular day or week. But it would be unreasonable for me to expect it. And even more unreasonable to call my employer “cheap” for not doing it.
Audrey, next time I’m in SA, I want to go to your bar.
Or maybe you’d consider moving to Austin and working in a bar here? 
Demise: Hey neighbor! 
(I went to UT up there, so you’re all over my old stomping grounds.)
And what’s creepy is that I am thinking about moving back to Austin. So consider my presence at your local bar a Potential Coming Attraction.
(If you’d like to stop by my bar here in SA, email me and I’ll give you the details. You know, as long as you’re not some slobbering stalker in the making. If you look anything like Eldon The Coffee Guy, who comes in every day, drinks two pots of coffee, talks to himself, and insists my name is Jennifer…well, all bets are off.)
Doreen: I see your logic…really I do…and perhaps you were unfairly clobbered for just “asking the question.”
The thing is, how well known/followed a practice/rule/etiquette guideline is doesn’t make it valid or invalid. Emily Post, Google, etc., have already solidified the “rule” of tipping on the pre-discounted price. Just because not everyone knows about it doesn’t mean it doesn’t still stand. And a lot of people know the rules and don’t care. (Kind of like traffic laws.) Just because most of the people on the road don’t use their blinkers doesn’t mean that they’re not *required[i/] to use 'em. Just that they ignore the rules.
And all servers are really saying is that it sucks when people don’t tip on the pre-discounted price. Kind of like when people use free drink coupons at my bar and stiff me on them. There are all kinds of injustices, and short ends of the stick, in the work place…bitching about them doesn’t mean you’re not a good employee, or that you should either quit, or “suck it up.” Everybody bitches about their job. I know a salesgirl who works at Saks, on commission, and YES, she says it sucks when people buy stuff on sale and she only gets the tiny clearance commission.
It also sucks when, because she’s not a high-pressure type of salesgirl, she doesn’t make the commissions the other girls make. She’s not too fond of her job, but it’s the best one she can find at the moment; just because she has this job doesn’t mean she isn’t entitled to her opinions and pet peeves concerning it.
So I guess the question, Doreen, is that now that you DO know that you’re expected to tip on the pre-discounted price, will you?
I have a quick question regarding the quality of services you provide.
Given that tips are calculated based on the costs of food and drinks, does the level of service provided change based on the orders of the diners?
My wife and I aren’t real drinkers, and we don’t always order the most expensive items on the menu (well, the wife DOES like her filet mignon, actually ). I don’t ask this because we usually get poor service on these occasions (indeed, there are actually very few instances I can think of where we received below adequate service); it’s sheer curiosity.
I think we tip pretty well. In fact, I can only think of one time where we did not tip at least 20% (and that was for very poor service).
I probably would have anyway, if I had ever used a discount coupon (the only ones I’ve ever seen are only valid from 2pm-4pm on Wed or some such thing), or at any rate 15% of it , since my tips usually start at around 20% ( being that I’m from New York and all)
Um, I was agreeing with your answer and attempting to do the math to explain it.
I was specifcally agreeing to this:
“Wow, thanks for the lesson. Now I’m going to give you a little lesson in waiting tables. 15% tips are better. Period. I’m gonna have to work harder to get the same amount of money if it comes from 75 10% tippers than 50 15% tippers. I’m waiting on more people for the same amount of money at the end of the night.”
and then I did the math to explain it.
So, reading comprehension issues work both ways sometimes?
I’m not a server, nor do I play one on TV, however:
Snookie & I dine out regularly, at a wide variety of places. Servers tend to remember us, even when we don’t remember them (“Didn’t I wait on you when I worked at Bennigans?”), we never order drinks (not that we don’t drink, we just don’t drink at restaurants/bars), and we tend to get excellent service the second time.
Not only do we tip well (generally a generous 20% of the bill -which would include tip and the discount if given is added back), we often leave some small toy (I carry them around in case I need them), and (and personally , I believe this is why we get excellent service) we actually engage the server as a human being.
I’d never give a table BAD service because they’re NOT drinking. I rarely drink when I’m eating out, myself. Too poor. But if a table IS drinking a lot, I, as their server, find that I’m apt to be less formal with them. As the table loosens up, I’ll do my table schtick, (upon ordering a second round, someone at the table will ineviably make a joke about someone else at the table getting drunk. I will usually respond with something along the lines of ‘the happier you all get, the better my tip gets. More booze!’) Of course, I only do this if the people seem to be the type that will apprechaite a joke.
[hyjack] I once had a couple at one of my tables. They had two drinks with dinner. They had asked me a bit about myself, and I had developed a certain banter with them. When I approached the table after the meal and asked them if they wanted any coffee or dessert, the man ordered a dessert, and the woman said “I can’t decide if I want Sambuca or a glass of wine.” She looked at me.
“Hey, either sounds about good to me right now,” I said dryly. She looked at the man. He looked at me.
“If she has Sambuca, that means racous sex tonight.” My eyes grew to the size of saucers. Without missing a beat, the woman said:
“I’ll have the wine.” I smiled, put the order in, calmly walked to the kitchen and laughed my ass off. And got close to 25%. [/hyjack]
You know, after I posted that I thought to myself “I wonder if she was agreeing with me?” Then the phone started ringing and the workday tornado began to blow in.
I think I overreacted because a couple of pages ago you took a quote of mine that was meant with upmost sincerity “it’s harder to serve a four top than a two top” and took it as sarcastic “that is the silliest thing I’ve ever heard! How about a six top? Or an eight top?”
I responded that I thought you had misread it and you never replied. I just assumed you’d done it again.
Sorry bout that. 
Actually, I don’t laugh about people turning me in, because as I mentioned - Uh, twice now - I HAVEN’T WORKED AS A SERVER FOR ABOUT 10 YEARS, AND I NEVER PUT CRAP IN PEOPLE’S FOOD WHEN I DID. People couldn’t turn me in if they wanted to - no crime was committed, and even if one had been, I’m sure the statute of limitations has expired by now. Ahem.
I’m really just doing a public service here - to whom I’m not sure - just wanting to point out that I have personally witnessed crap being put in people’s food. Generally, it was because the people(s) in question were obnoxious to there server.
All that being said - thank you Diane and keithnmick for the links. As I said, it’s really not an issue for me personally, but interesting reading, all the same.
Al. (Who NEVER put crap in people’s food.)
But alice did you put crap in people’s food???
D & R