I was reading the thread in IMHO about bad tippers, and I came across this comment:
I haven’t worn a suit for decades. When I go out, I dress in clean, fairly fashionable clothes. My hair is washed and brushed; I wear after shave. In short, I am presentable.
I have come across this attitude - though rarely put so vehemently - and if the restaurant clearly states it as policy, then I’ll just eat somewhere else. I think I recognise the metality of the - I was going to say pitter - poster, but I’ve always disliked this sort of attitude. If I’m paying you for a service, I don’t see that you have the right to dictate the sort of clothes I should wear. And if you’re a fellow diner, I may have my views about *your *sartorial elegance - or lack of it - but I wouldn’t presume to force you to wear something else, let alone curse you.
There are environments where I understand that a ‘uniform’ is required, but a restaurant or other place of entertainment is not one of them.
Hell, I have a suit… I even have Sports Jackets, but I never wear them. I used to be required to wear a tie to work. I started occasionally not wearing one and have worked that up to rarely wearing one.
You know, I actually tip when I go to a restaurant.
8% is enough, right?
Probably because if you’re the only one left in a suit, you quickly become the ridiculously overdressed one.
The attitude mentioned in the OP reflects the displeasure of restaurants and patrons who want to keep a certain business “formal”, yet feel the tipping point is reached.
You’re in the UK, and as I understand it, tipping is not the norm there. It is the norm here, and people who don’t believe in it are making a social mistake by not conforming. Most Americans will leave something…it’s the amount that can’t always be agreed upon.
Being “presentable” does not always equal “being dressed appropriately.” I know that the rules have relaxed a lot in recent years, but there are some events that traditionally require a specific type of dress code. I try to stick by those traditions.
I’m sorry - I should have edited the quote, and left out the bit about tipping. My rant is only about being told what to wear. I think (and hope) that he/she wasn’t equating not wearing a suit to being a bad tipper. I took it that he/she thought both were equally despicable, in their own particular way.
I didn’t want to hijack that thread, so I’ve brought the clothing aspect here.
Oh - and I love that ‘believe it not’ bit. Can you imagine: there are actually people who do not wear suits!
Restaurants or clubs that “tell you what to wear” (the cliched phrase is “dress to impress”) are one thing. They trying to create an imagine that they are better than other places. They may have crappy food and music, but if every man is in a suit, it seems more justifiable to overprice everything.
Workplaces, however, are inequitable. More and more men are less and less expected to “dress up” (wear a suit and tie). Women, however, seem to always fare better if they put on dresses, make up, high heals etc. Make up! What a pain in the ass that must be. So what the hell, I’ll wear a suit and tie.
We’ve had this discussion before in relation to events like weddings and funerals, where there is some perception that wearing a suit is showing respect for the event and hte deceased or bride/groom. I know it’s a far cry from no suit to ratty t-shirt and it sounds like you are respectful, but on some level, sometimes a suit is a requirement and not wearing one on principal is being contrary.
Well, that’s the dumbest correlation I’ve ever seen. My grandfather wears suits quite regularly, and the old fart tips 5%, 10% for really great service. And he bitches the whole time he’s leaving it about getting ripped off by having to tip. The whole family makes up excuses to get the tip when we eat out with him, because letting him leave the tip is just too damn embarrassing. But he’s all about meeting social expectations in his dress and other behaviors.
I know a lot of people like him, who have one area (not always tipping) where they just don’t care about social expectations, but follow them pretty closely in all other areas.
I agree weddings are different: there are a whole raft of conventions attached to them - not least for clothing.
But I still resent that a restaurant, where I pay to get an enjoyable experience (hopefully), feels it has a right to dictate what particular fashion I should dress in. As long as I’m not wearing anything offensive or out of place (such as a bathing costume and snorkel to an inner city Michelin starred restaurant), I think what I wear is nobody’s business but mine. Having said that, I recently visited a beach side (as in on the beach) highly renowned restaurant in very casual clothing, and I certainly wasn’t out of place.
I can be very smart without having to wear a suit. I support standards in clothing - not specifically what I should have to wear. It’s not really a principle: it’s just how I dress.
I don’t see anything rant-worthy about a restaurant that requires a jacket. They are trying to satisfy customers who want an upscale dining experience. Like you said you can just not eat there, you don’t need fine dining to get good food and I’m sure the guys running the four-star places would be the first ones to tell you that. Some customers just enjoy being in a formal environment with other people who are also dressed us. As a downscale diner I am more than happy to see all these folks find a club where they can go hang out. And as we also learned in the tipping threads, servers in fine dining can make pretty decent money. Win win AFAICT.
Theater is a bit different, I’m not going to say “Well just don’t go to the opera if you don’t like it!” But AFAIK a jacket isn’t required to go the theater, you are free to go in your dockers and other folks are free to quietly look down their noses at you.
So in sum, I would say that if the business has a dress code then it’s their business they can do what they want. If a place of business has no dress code but other patrons are tut-tutting anyhow, yes that’s snobby, if the business gave you a seat then they have to deal. Weddings and funerals are personal events and in a different category, as stated.
Having been on both sides of the argument (spent a large part of my working life in catering) I have to say that I tend to dress according to the company I’m with. If it’s a casual drink and then on for a meal, then I tend to dress casually but for something like a first date then I would wear a suit.
I would also say that one of the best meals in my life was whilst I was dressed in TOTAL contravention of the establishments dress code. I’d just moved house and had spent all day painting, decorating , moving furniture and doing minor repairs. By the time I realised I needed to eat, most of the local places were full. I was trying to find a pub that did food and stopped by a very exclusive restaurant in a nearby village hoping they would know somewhere I could get something to eat. I explained my situation to the maitre d’ and he asked me to wait for a minute. Then he came back and showed me to a table. I felt really out of place in paint-spattered overalls but the staff were charming and put me at ease. The food was superb as well and I enjoyed it so much I became a regular there, although I did dress more conventionally for subsequent visits. (By the way, I normally tip 15% but poor service gets a tip too… 1p)
I truly don’t understand this logic. If I decide to go out to a nice restaurant, it’s because the place promises good food and good service, for which I will pay (and tip) accordingly. That is, I’m there to have a meal. I assume that other diners are there for the same reason. I’m not there to entertain them with my good looks or my sartorial elegance. If another diner is paying that much attention to my appearance, he/she is there for the wrong reason, and perhaps they should patronize an establishment whose food and service are worthy of being ignored.
If I’m at a wedding, I’m there because I want to celebrate with the people getting married. I assume that other people are there to do the same thing. If another guest gets his/her nose out of joint because they’re scrutinizing my appearance, he/she is not paying attention to the business at hand. Don’t like the way I look? Go congratulate the bride and stop staring at me.
I think a person should be allowed to wear whatever he or she wants wherever they want, as long as they’re comfortable with the fact that everyone else will consider him or her a clueless dolt who is either too stupid to know how inappropriate they look, or is an arrogant douchebag. But if you want to look like that, it’s certainly your choice.
That’s a very sweeping statement. What you’ve said is that anyone wearing anything they want is clueless, stupid, inappropriate and an arrogant douchebag. I wouldn’t say that tolerance is your middle name.
If I go into a restaurant and my server acts like she/he regards me as a “shit stain” then yeah, I’m not gonna be generous when tip time comes; self-fulfulling prophecy imho
Y’know, outside of Doperland, I’ve yet to meet anyone who doesn’t grok the face that clothing isn’t just a way to keep warm, but also a way to communicate non-verbally. And yet, every few months there’s another thread where a Doper proclaims right to wear what they want, when they want. How dare someone tell them that their torn jeans and frayed shirt is not an acceptable all-purpose oufit!
It’s baffling to me.
I don’t get all dressed up because I love walking around with pantyhose hiked up to my armpits, a strapless bra digging into my ribs and my feet squashed into a pair of shoes that make Chinese foot-binding seem humane by comparison. Given my druthers, I’d probably be much more comfortable in my everyday stretch jeans and a simple knit top… but if I show up at a special occasion like a friend’s black tie wedding or an anniversary dinner at a chi-chi restaurant wearing the same comfy clothes I wear everyday, I’m sending a message to everyone else that this is a mundane and unspecial occasion by virtue of my mundane and unspecial clothes.
Style is a means of communication. That’s why graduates wear a cap and gown, why certain religious orders ask their followers to dress a specific way, why doctors usually wear a white lab coat, and why brides wear a foofy white dress (or don’t, which says even more than the foofy white dress does).
Sloppy casual clothing in a place where something more formal is the norm? corkboard’s post pretty much nails the message the wearer is conveying to me.
Wouldn’t the arrogant douchebag be the people who refuse to conform to the dress conventions, thereby drawing negative attention to themselves, and with no regard for the feelings of other diners, the bride and groom, or any of the other guests?
No, what I said was people ***will think of them as ***clueless and stupid, or an arrogant douchebag, ***if ***by dressing the way they want they’re inappropriate for the environment.
If that makes me intolerant, so be it. But it’s not like I’m going to pick a fight with them or anything; I’ll just think of them in a way that’s befitting their rebellious sartorial choces.
