I don’t walk up to strangers and scratch behind their ears either, but if a dog (stray or on a leash) walks up to me and doesn’t look like it will rip my arm off, I’m going to bend down and pet it (service dogs are the exception).
I don’t make funny faces at strangers waiting in line at a grocery store to see if I can make them smile, but I sure do it to babies at every opportunity.
I don’t put my arm around most adults and call them “hon” or “sweety”, but I just can’t help myself when it comes to elderly men and women.
The other day while waiting in the doctors office, a little girl who looked to be around one year old crawled up on the lap of my 10 year old boy. Her mother looked embarrassed and asked my son if it was okay - he loves babies and babies love him, so of course it was okay. I got him a book and he sat and read her stories. She even cried when she had to leave with her mom.
I think it is sad that experiences like this are quickly disappearing due to paranoia and a need to be left alone in our own business.
Thanks to you both for expressing exactly what I felt about all of this.
I was reading this thread, shaking my head in disbelief, and wondering if the whole world had gone mad.
My brother’s daughter (my goddaughter) was in public very early on.
We’d take her everywhere. She was at weddings (two in that summer), malls, restaurants, museums, she even was at the office a couple of times.
Of course, at the weddings and other family parties, she was in contact with a lot of people (over 100) and even young kids. Everyone wanted to hold her, and some of the older children did too. They were supervised, and no accident happened.
When we’d be out in public, sometimes people would walk up to us and ask if they could touch her. Other times, people would walk up to her (and whoever was holding the crib or pram (poussette is the word we use in french) and start touching her hair or her face or whatever and would ask about her. Neither bothered us, since we knew their intentions were good. How did we know? Very simple. If you look out of your bubble and actually pay attention to what is really going on, you will know too. Body language is a big part of it. Eye contact will tell you a lot as well.
Laurika is now 1 1/2 and she’s a very happy and healthy baby who is very curious and aware of her surroundings. She is a glowing little angel, and I think that a lot of it is all the love she received. From us, our family and all the strangers who stopped to coo at her and play with her.
I sincerely hope that the old lady in the OP wasn’t changed by this experience. If she ‘learned her lesson’ as some of you put it, this world is a little sadder, and for that I blame the OP.
O holy lord fucking jesus. This again? Were you in on that thread? If not, go back and read why exposing someone to illness might be considered (by some) the sensible thing to do, especially when the illness is known to strike people harder the older they are. I think those of us who would do it have already been called “child abusers” and idiots enough in that thread.
I sure don’t want to go over that again here.
Actually, Tom, I like the points you made. I understand why a preemie shouldn’t be touched, but I too am chagrined by the attitude many Americans have (and perhaps have been conditioned to have) towards strangers and babies. I’ve often said I wished we lived in a culture that felt differently.
If you are willing to allow strangers to touch your baby that is fine.
If you do not want strangers touching your baby that too is fine.
Bubble Girl did not hit the woman, did not call her nasty names. She told the woman why it was a bad idea to touch the baby and told her why. She even started by saying ** “excuse me, excuse me” which the woman ignored not once but twice **. She has as much right to say keep your hands off my baby as any parent ( who chooses to do so) has the right to smile at someone who touches their child.
I look at, smile at, make funny faces at, play peek-a-boo with and talk to babies that belong to people I don’t know in the store, at resturants all the time. I don’t think anyone has a problem with that, if a parent were to ask me not to do that for any reaso, I would stop and apologise to them. But I don’t touch without asking.
It is clear that there are people on both sides of the issue here. That’s ok too. We aren’t all part of a hive mind after all.
What I find interesting is that no one taking the it’s ok to say don’t touch my baby stand has said anything like this { Tomcat said to bubble girl} ** Thank you, Bubbles, for turning another kind, caring, normal person into a cynical ‘hands-off’ person. And the sad part is, is that you will justify your actions to the very end. “The GERMS!!!” “Think about the GERMSSSS!!!” “She could’ve done anything to my child!!!” ** to those who seem to be taking the it’s ok to touch babies, I don’t mind strangers touching my baby stand. Because we understand that you are within your rights to allow your baby to be touched.
You’re kidding, right? Just because someone happens to be elderly doesn’t mean they want to be hugged by a random stranger and called by a childish name. They’re adults. I hope that when I’m old and gray, strangers do not take it upon themselves to come up to me, put their arm around me, and call me “sweety”. They will probably not appreciate the reaction they will get. I would not appreciate this being done to me as a 24-year-old, and I cannot imagine appreciating it as a 70-year-old.
And regarding the dog thing, I may have been scarred (emotionally, that is) by a few bad childhood experiences with animals, but I would absolutely never walk up and pet a strange dog. Just because it looks friendly doesn’t mean it is.
Moving away from what Diane posted, I’d just like to point out that this strange idea that so many people have that they have a God-given right to touch anything adorable and cute DOES NOT APPLY to my 7-months-pregnant belly. What on God’s green earth gives people the idea that they can just come up to me and give my belly a pat, or rub their hands all over it? Do they also go up to fat people and jiggle their love handles? Do they rub the heads of bald people?
Just because something is cute doesn’t give you the right to put your hands all over it. There is this concept that I like to call “personal space”, and I would appreciate it if you would NOT VIOLATE IT without my permission. This has nothing to do with germs and everything to do with not liking to be intimately touched by total strangers. (By “intimate”, I mean getting a tummy rub or pat; obviously I am not talking about accidentally bumping shoulders with someone in a crowded hallway or whatever.)
Just keep your hands off me unless you get my express permission; is that so difficult? And I really don’t understand why it’s hard to carry this concept over to infants. Infants, too, are people, and have the right not to be manhandled by total strangers just because they happen to be cute. To all of you who are saying, “Wouldn’t the world be a better place if we could all just hug and kiss all the sweet babies we wanted to?”, I ask you, “Wouldn’t the world be a better place if people were polite about respecting others’ bodies?” I’m not saying you can’t pat the damn baby; just ask first. How the hell hard is that?
And once again, please keep your goddamn hands off my belly. That is all.
Oh give me a fucking break, it isn’t like I am talking baby gaa gaa goo goo talk to them, but simply putting a hand on their shoulder and yes, I even give them hugs once in a while. A large percentage of the clients I counsel are WWII vets and widows and I think I can safely say that I have a lot of contact with the elderly. I can assure you that most of them, especially those who are homeless, a touch or hug from another human being is something they not only crave, but need.
Yeah, and in all my 39 years I have never been bit by a dog who came up to me wagging his tail and looking friendly. Not to say that it can’t happen, but until it does I will continue doing what I have always done, thankyouverymuch.
Shit, it must suck living in fear of germs, dog bites, and a kind hand on your shoulder.
Oh, and FWIIW, I hated the hand on the belly thing too.
Good for you. I have been bitten by a dog that was wagging its tail and looking friendly. It sucked. A lot. (I was 9 years old and went to scratch the dog behind its ears; it immediately growled at me and then bit my arm.) I would like for it to never happen again. Therefore I will never again pet a strange animal. Of course, I’m not the type of person who is overwhelmed by an urge to run up and pet every animal I see, either.
Perhaps you missed the part of my post where I said that my complaint had nothing to do with germs. I will therefore say it again. At least for me, this has nothing to do with germs. It’s a matter of personal space and politeness. Don’t come up and hug/pat/rub someone that you don’t know without their permission.
Obviously if you are in a counseling situation, that’s somewhat different. I was assuming that you were referring to random encounters with strangers, based on your statement that you “just can’t help it”. I admit that I skipped some of the middle sections of this thread, so if you mentioned previously that you’re in counseling, Diane, I apologize.
And I still maintain that it’s not the smartest thing in the world to go pet a strange animal, but to each their own, I suppose.
Shame on me for letting myself get drawn into the strawman arguments.
If you don’t like your baby touched, great. It is your prerogative as a parent and I certainly don’t expect you to offer your baby to strangers hands. I only offered my comments regarding my own daughter as another view in that I was perfectly okay with her contact with the public.
However, my opinion that the withdrawn, don’t look or touch me, staring at the floor walking fast, attitude that a lot of people seem to be having lately is partially to blame for our cold and impersonal society. Yes, I do find it quite sad.
[[One more thing, Tomcat. I’ll bet you’re the kind of idiot who takes their kids over to play with the neighbor’s kids when they’ve all got the chicken pox. “Let’s get their immune systems nice and healthy by making them sick as dogs!! Yay, hurray!” Don’t try to keep them healthy by AVOIDING sick people, keep them safe by EXPOSING them to illness. That has GOT to be one of the most inane ideas I’ve ever heard!!]]
I didn’t see the other thread on this, but for the record, you either expose your child to chicken pox or you immunize your child against chicken pox. Simply delaying their exposure until they are older is dangerous. As Cranky said, it’s a more serious disease for adults than for children.
I wouldnt let some strange woman who had just wiped her ass anywhere near ANY KID OF ANY AGE.
Thats fucking gross. Its a bathroom, and unless she went in to reapply her lipstick, then her hands were NASTY.
Yuck, this makes me sick just thinking about it. The two filthiest things on earth are the malls bathroom, and money.
To handle either of these things and then touch a baby’s hands (which everyone must agree will go directly to their mouth) isnt that the equivalent of letting a stranger in the bathroom, of dubious hygene, put her hands in baby’s mouth?
Gross gross gross.
FWIW I personally wouldnt take a baby to the mall if it had a compromised immune system. But even if I had uber-immune kid, bathroom fingers - YUCK!
This is the whole point of my “argument.” You allowed your baby to be touched and held by those people and I have not the slightest problem with that. But someone who doesn’t have permission shouldn’t assume it’s ok. Some people don’t mind, but some people do (as we’ve learned “ad infinitum” on this thread).
My grandmother told me about a friend of hers that did this with her baby. She deliberately took her around a child who had whooping cough so as to expose her and keep her from getting it later on in life. The baby died from whooping cough. I understand that childhood diseases can be very serious for adults, but sometimes the choice to expose your children to something on purpose can be fatal. I know this probably isn’t true of chicken pox, but for pity’s sake, if you must do one or the other to protect them from something later in life, please…do it with immunization shots!!!
I know some religions prohibit this, so please don’t flame me on that issue. Just giving my opinion FWIW (approx. 25¢ on the open market. LOL)
(Sorry for the hijack…Now back to our regularly scheduled program. )
This could be a whole new thread! This happened to me only once in my life, during my first pregnancy. The guy wasn’t a stranger, but my discomfort at the intrusion existed on several levels:
It was a young man who I’d had a crush on for ONE WEEK as a teenager, so somehow he thought that he and I had a history and seemed to make it his life’s goal to be in silent competition with my husband on the issue.
2)His SEVEN MONTH’S PREGNANT WIFE was standing right there when he did it.
I wasn’t even showing yet, so my belly was flat and this NON-HUSBAND of mine was petting me on it.
He was crouching to get something from the floor, so he was reaching UP to pet me on the flat belly. (Imagine my horror at the close proximity to “you know” should he have missed his goal.)
He didn’t ask. (I’d have said “Not just no, but HELL NO!” if he had.)
[[My grandmother told me about a friend of hers that did this with her baby. She deliberately took her around a child who had whooping cough so as to expose her and keep her from getting it later on in life. The baby died from whooping cough.]]
No NO NO
Whooping cough (pertussis) is an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THING. Chicken pox is not usually dangerous and getting the illness confers immunity. You DON’T purposely expose babies to pertussis.
Carry on.
I’m tihnking a lot of people are coming at the same thing from different sides here.
When someone looks at my daughter and tells sincerily that they think she’s beautiful, it makes my day. I WANT people to see her. All I ask is that my rights as a parent are respected, and that permission is asked before getting too physically close to her. I make no judgements whatsoever on other parents who chose to do otherwise.
What it comes down to is simple. No one else is Emily’s parents except Bubblegirl and I, and we both prefer that permission is asked first before handling her.
P.S. It was not and “elderly lady” in the bathroom. She was in her late twenties. Also, Ayesha hit the problem dead on: if she hadn’t have blown off the mother of the baby she had just taken it upon herself to handle, then things wouldn’t have progressed to where they did, which was simply BB telling her in a normal tone of voice(NOT screaming) that her actions were rude.
Diane–just one point here–you say you pet dogs that you don’t know if they seem friendly. Fine–they’ll bite your fingers off if they don’t like it. They’ll also be happy to snack on your hands should you reach in and pet one of their puppies. You just don’t violate personal space–don’t know what’s so hard to understand about that. Hell, yes, I’d love to live in a society where you could leave your kids unattended and not have to worry about them and where the germs from the common cold never make a child so sick that they could die from complications. But, alas, that’s not the world we live in–turn on the news and see. Call me paranoid all you want, but I’ll still lock my doors at night and I still don’t want complete strangers laying hands on my kids. BTW–addressing the argument that was offered by Tomcat about how if people wanted to spread germs, they’d do it deliberately. I have seen GROWN PEOPLE use the bathroom and walk out without so much as looking in the direction of the sink. Sickening–and the idea of one of these people sticking their hands in my baby’s face is repulsive. I know I can’t avoid every instance of contamination, but that doesn’t mean that I need to be plain careless about it!
The point I was making with the so-called straw man was that just because they’re babies doesn’t make them worth less consideration as people than adults–you shouldn’t assume that a stanger of ANY age wants to be touched by another stranger. Old , young, or in between. I’ve seen people who’ve been offended when they chuck a baby’s chin and the baby draws back and starts crying–as if the baby was the one being rude. Is it SO much trouble to ask the parent if it’s OK to touch the baby? I manage to do it–usually a simple, “May I?” is what I say–and it’s never left me with sore muscles yet! Most of the time, the parent doesn’t mind–I know that I don’t mind in most cases either. But all I want is to be asked–I might have a reason for saying “No” that you are unaware of. I am proud of my kids, the two I have, and the one on the way. I love it when others ooh and ahh over them–it’s not the simple act of touching them that I mind. It’s the ASSUMPTION that I wouldn’t mind so they just go ahead.
And for the record–definitely NEVER touch a sleeping baby without asking. You are liable to get a boot in the butt if you wake up one that Mom finally got to sleep so that she could shop in peace!!
Jill–one thing about deliberately exposing a child to the chicken pox. You claim that it isn’t fatal–but in some cases it is. These days, health officials are fighting a battle to stop parents from doing this. There are immunizations for those who want them–NEVER should you expose a child deliberately to an illness that, at best, can scar a child for life. At worst, it CAN kill. I can’t remember the exact statistic on deaths from chicken pox, but it was on a poster in out local health department–I’ll try to get a look at it the next time I go in.
This is not intended as an attack, Jill. Just thought that perhaps you might be interested in this info.
Mayflower, I agree that immunization is best nowadays. I am an epidemiologist with the Public Health Department. I completed the CDC immunization course last year. Chicken pox can be dangerous, but rarely is. Best is immunization. Being exposed to the disease may offer better longterm immunity than the shot, though. And the worst is no shot and no early infection, leading a person to be exposed later in life when they’re most likely to have complications. So there’s the hierarchy.
Sorry for the hijack, but here are the stats:
Before shots were available, there were about 100 deaths a year from chicken pox. Many of the childhood deaths probably occurred in children with other health problems or immunocompromised conditions. Although fewer than 5% of cases occur in people over age 20, 55% of varicella-related deaths occur in this age group.
It used to be that over 95% of Americans contracted and recovered from chickenpox when they were very young and least likely to have complications. Now, because many children are vaccinated, those who aren’t are not likely to be exposed to the disease while young and may contract it in adulthood when it can be serious. So we have created (or the pharmaceutical companies have created) a situation where a disease once thought to be fairly benign now must be immunized against.
I’m completely against choosing infection over immunization with almost all other diseases. I don’t judge parents who allow their young children to get chicken pox, though. And I venture to say that many pediatricians agree with me.
)
Most of the time, the parent doesn’t mind–I know that I don’t mind in most cases either. But all I want is to be asked–I might have a reason for saying “No” that you are unaware of. I am proud of my kids, the two I have, and the one on the way. I love it when others ooh and ahh over them–it’s not the simple act of touching them that I mind. It’s the ASSUMPTION that I wouldn’t mind so they just go ahead.