Which is the best solution.
I do the same whenever some Christian proselytizer says I am doomed or even that I am already burning in hell. Yes, Satan gets me alive… This happened in midwinter while I was in a very cold place in Europe. Hence I told him I liked the prospect of feeling a warming fire. I think he is still praying for me.
Salaam. A
But…but…children are born naked. And clean shaven I might add. :dubious: (OTOH, they’re also born sober.) 
Not to mention uncircumcised… :smack:
Aldebaran said:
The OP asked for the meaning of the word kafir as understood by muslims. You said that it means “someone who doesn’t believe in God”. I pointed out that this is not quite right. It does include people who don’t believe in God but it also refers to people who do believe in God but are not christians, muslims or jews.
Amongst extremist muslims it also includes christians, jews and “heretical” muslims. I produced a cite to show that this is the case. Are you saying that you disagree with that wikipedia article?
I was giving an example of a group of people who believe in God but are still labelled kafirs by the surrounding muslims. Thus kafir does not mean simply “one who does not believe in God”.
jayjay said:
In order to submit to something though, one would need to make a conscious act. A baby cannot submit because it lacks the intellectual framework to do it. Submit means “To yield or surrender (oneself) to the will or authority of another.”
In order to yield or surrender oneself one would need to make a deliberate choice to do so. A baby does not “yield or surrender” itself to anyone. It is incapable of looking after itself, yes, but that does not mean that it yields or surrenders itself.
I think the idea is that while those other people may believe in a god or gods, they don’t believe in God…that they believe in false gods.
Actually, I was being sarcastic. As I understand it, a lot of Muslims feel that all study increasing the knowledge of Allah, which they feel is a good thing. So my visiting the website and reading up about kufr I learned things, reflected on them, drew conclusions. You may not agree with those conclusions but surely you must agree that the process is generally a good one via Muslim beliefs.
I wouldn’t force that belief of mine onto anyone else, I’ll express my opinion though 
Good Jesus, oops :eek:
That people use a word giving it a general meaning is not related to whits meaning in a religious/dogmatic context.
Amongst extremist muslims it also includes christians, jews and “heretical” muslims. I produced a cite to show that this is the case. Are you saying that you disagree with that wikipedia article?
I was giving an example of a group of people who believe in God but are still labelled kafirs by the surrounding muslims. Thus kafir does not mean simply “one who does not believe in God”.
jayjay said:
In order to submit to something though, one would need to make a conscious act. A baby cannot submit because it lacks the intellectual framework to do it. Submit means “To yield or surrender (oneself) to the will or authority of another.”
In order to yield or surrender oneself one would need to make a deliberate choice to do so. A baby does not “yield or surrender” itself to anyone. It is incapable of looking after itself, yes, but that does not mean that it yields or surrenders itself.
[/QUOTE]
Nevertheless I am correct.
Being correct in understanding what a word was originally supposed to mean in a theological context, does not mean to imply that every person following that religion has an idea about this or gives it that connotation.
And no, its original intention is not to refer people who adhere any of the monotheistic religions, which does not exclude the use of it for referring to adherents of these religion who are not seen as “right followers” of these religions.
I can write on the Wikipedia everything that comes to my mind and so can you. This to say that it is in some cases such an online an not all that very well controlled medium, acessable for entries by anyone who feels for it, can be informative and in other cases you should be very cautious.
In any case you should not feel as if everything you read there is “true” because you read it there.
I don’t know about these people and what they believe.
In my view however, someone who believes a rock or a tree is the incarnation of God and firmly believes that while worshipping these items he is worshipping the Creator of all, can make the claim he is worshipping God.
The problem with all religions starts when people don’t think about this and start to claim that they know it all much better then God Himself does.
That is also not the intention behind this reasoning.
The intention is to point out that a baby has no knowledge of evil and no knowledge of good either. It is completely unaware and hence completely innocent. As such it is considered to be in a state of worshipping God = merely by that state of unawareness and innocence. There is no choice making involved. A baby doesn’t choose to be innocent, just like it doesn’t choose to be born.
Salaam. A
Bingo.
Bingo.
Actually, so was Aldebaran.
Bingo.
Keep going, you guys. Two more bingos and I win! 
Aldebaran said:
Yes, it’s a strange term that seems to mean different things to different people. I think we can agree that it’s not a term that should be used by any muslim in reference to other people (since no one but God knows what is in people’s hearts). Here is a definition given by Islam Online.
However, the term “kafir” appears in the quran several times and so it is a definite thing and must have some kind of definition. The definition given on that Islam Online site seems to lean toward saying that a kafir would be someone who knows about islam but rejects it’s teachings. This would encompass, for example, a christian who learns everything about islam but still decides to remain a christian. They would then be one who has rejected the truth.
According to that site, the original meaning of “kafir” is as follows:
So really, “kafir” means someone who understands islam but rejects it as the true faith. So it’s easy to see why the extremists tend to call everyone “kafir”, even other muslim sects. It seems to be a pretty ill-defined, broad-ranging term.
Having said all that, I’m not sure that it should be taken as an insult. Osama would probably think that you are more of a kafir than I am (and he would probably think that I’m a pretty big kafir). You would be a bigger kafir than me because (he would think) that you have had an opportunity to hear the true islam but have rejected it. So I would take the term “kafir” more as a compliment than as an insult (when it comes from the mouth of Osama or his ilk).
In fact, kafir seems to end up meaning “anyone who disagrees with me”. Using that as a definition I think that I am the only true me in the world and everyone else is a kafir. My definition is as true as any other.
So then, by your own definition, a baby cannot be a muslim.
You say that a baby exists in a state of innocence and thereby in a state of worshipping God. The definition of islam is submission to God, a muslim is one who submits to God. A baby cannot submit (since it lacks the ability to do so). It is not in a state of submission, it is in a state of innocence. A muslim is not “a person in a state of innocence”, a “muslim” is “a person in a state of submission”.
Innocence does not equal submission. They are two different things. You are trying to equate the two but you cannot do this. The definition of a muslim is a person who is in a state of submission to God not “a person who is in a state of innocence”. The definition of a baby is a person who is in a state of innocence not “a person who is in a state of submission to God”.
It is impossible for a baby to be in a state of submission and therefore it is impossible for a baby to be a muslim. One can only become a muslim, one cannot be born a muslim.
Hey now, I was born with a full head of hair. What the hell does that make me?
How hard it must be to be an atheist, and not have any comprehension of what true religion is. I mean, I’m not going to speak for televangelists and jihadists and crap, but I’ll pipe up for religion in general, perhaps in a more new-agey way.
If you read all the whole comment on the questions as posted on that (at first sight Wahhabi) website, you find them completely in line with what I said.
However I firmly disagree when he starts calling people “followers of Muhammed” even when maybe he does that to make it more clear what he means by his previous explanation. He could eventually have said “compagnons” of Muhammed which would have been more correct and leaves no place for misinterpretation.
It is a great stupidity of that author to put such a thing on an Islamic website.
Such wrong comments are a reason why people think Islam is based on Muhammed similar to Christianity which is based on what they perceive as the teachings of Jesus.
Where did I say otherwise? I said that not every Muslim has a good grasp of every theological meaning of every Arabic word that is given such a meaning.
I would say that one can hardly take as an insult what does not touch you personally. Since you are not a Muslim, what do yo care how Muslims would call you?
Osama bin Laden does not reaches the level of my feet in knowledge about Islam.
I couldn’t care less about what a lunatic calls me.
No it does not. What you or others who have no insight in its meaning make of it has no importance and most certainly can not change what is meant by it.
If I say that my PC screen is mirror and my PC a bath, does that mean I alter the meaning of the words, or does that mean I have no clue what I am talking about.
A lot of words only to give proof that you have no understanding of what worshipping God means.
Maybe you should give your description of how it is possible to worship God without the intention to submit yourself to God, because I can’t see any possibility to do that.
Salaam. A
I’ll explain to you where I’m having difficulties with your argument. Maybe I’m just being dumb, maybe you can help me out.
First, the idea that worship of God = submission to God is a uniquely islamic concept. You won’t find it in other religions. Here is a page from Catholic Online listing the beliefs of catholics. It says:
In christianity the emphasis is more on loving God rather than being in a state of submission to Him. Christians are required to serve God by keeping His commandments, it’s true, but this is still different to submission to God. Worship doesn’t equal submission. If it did then we wouldn’t need two words to describe the two things, one word would do. The reason we need two words is because they are two different concepts.
According to dictionary.com, worship means:
No mention of submission.
Submission means:
Secondly, you say that a baby is in a state of innocence and therefore in a state of worshipping God. I don’t see how that follows. If the baby is in a state of innocence then it has no concept of God. A state of innocence is just that - innocence. It has no other baggage (eg worship, submission etc). It’s just pure innocence.
Thus, innocence does not equal worship and worship does not equal submission.
Is it? I’m inclined to disagree. Among Evangelical Christians at least you seem to see the rhetoric of submission to God coming up all the time. I know an Evangelical friend of mind ( atypically liberal, but still considers himself a good Evangelical and goes to a very conservative church ) has used such verbiage around me before and I just googled this one up from some site talking about proper marital roles:
*”Therefore SUBMIT TO GOD [and not to the devil], [but] RESIST THE DEVIL …[and] DRAW NEAR TO GOD…” (James 4:7,8).
This is the highest order of submission that we “submit to God.” God Himself is the Highest! Notice that in submitting to God we are to “resist the devil.” If we are to submit to God, we are submitting to His thoughts and His ways. If we are to resist the devil, we are to resist his thoughts and his ways.*
It seems to me that submission to the will of God as a part of worship seems to be concept strongly implied by all the Abrahamic religions, with Islam perhaps just being a bit more explicit about it.
Granted that’s my own layman’s take on it - I’m no authority on comparative religious philosophy of that type and I have no doubt that the connotations of submission may differ a bit between different faiths ( and even sects ). Still it doesn’t seem to be such a rare idea.
And from Deuteronomy:
“Now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require from you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His Ways and love Him, and to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and and with all your soul…”
The theme of obedience to the will of God and service of God is a major one in both Judaism and Christianity.
A couple more:
“This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome.”
and…
"He has showed you, O man, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God. "
finally…
1 Samuel 15:22
"Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD ?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams. "
Just driving home an already well made point.
Aldebaran, thank you for your patient and informative answers about Islam.
My pleasure.
Sorry to remind you about the fact that we are discussing Islamic concepts. Not making a comparitive religious study.
See other the posts made about it.
That is why the baby is in a state of worshipping God. Its subconcience is said to be aware of about God.
In Islam plants are worshipping God. Rocks are, animals are, the sky is, the stars are, the planets… the whole of Creation is worships the Creator. Each and everyting in its own way.
Looking at Creation, the testemony of God’s greatness, is worshipping God.
Typing on a keyboard, knowing and recognizing that the knowledge and material needed to make it have their origin with God, is worshipping God. Etc… in the infinite.
Salaam. A
The difference being that in the quotes given above by Tamerlane, Captain Amazing and No Clue Boy, worship and submission are clearly two different concepts both of which are required. In islam worship is submission and submission is worship. The two terms are interchangeable.
Aldebaran said:
Yes but earlier on, you said:
I understood from this that you were taking worship and submisssion to be interchangeable terms and I was trying to point out that they are only interchangeable in islam. Thus I was trying to explain how it is possible to worship without submission.
Hmm…still not sure about this. I would say that the terms “worship” and “submission” require a level of consciousness that a rock doesn’t possess. To worship something you need to give it devotion. Devotion is another term that requires some degree of consciousness and intelligence.
You are saying that in the absence of consciousness, worship is the natural state of being. Whilst this is a very nice concept, it doesn’t fit in with the definition of worship as I understand it, which requires some element of pro-action.
YMMV (shrug)