Fixed Kimstu’s link. Will you read it now?
Wd: [anecdotal evidence]
I am having my best year ever work-wise, I deal almost exclusively with small businesses(1 to a couple employees) and they are booming as well, plus more people than ever are starting new ones. Last year I paid signifigantly less in taxes than the year before. This year I made a lot more money than ever before.
I’m happy for you. However, more than half of everybody else in this country made less money than they were making in 2000.
This illustrates another problem with increasing income inequality: it increasingly insulates those who are doing well financially from the rest of the society. If Weirddave were going only by his own anecdotal evidence based on his own financial success and that of his “booming” clientele, he wouldn’t even know that the median family income is actually decreasing. He would imagine that complaints about economic hardship are just “political ax-grinding”, when in fact the statistics make it clear that the economy is not in fact going well for most people.
milroyj: Well, your link doesn’t work
:rolleyes: Oh, for heaven’s sake, guys! Shall I come over there and peel you a grape, too? Here you go, you poor helpless darlings:
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/economy/
[preview: Thanks for the help, EO and TYM! :)]
That milroyj would be completely stumped by an extra quote mark in a link should come as no surprise to anyone.
[more anecdotal evidence]
Well scooter, over here where my limited rubber meets the local roads, you’re just as full of it. After 6 years of being able to pick and chose from a vast job market, my ass spent nearly all of last year trying to find a job. The one I have now is the worst one ever (and I’ve cleaned toilets :mad: ) and the job market up here has shrunk to shit.
Congrats on your success, but don’t make it sound like everyone has it great and we’re the only ones who’ve got it rough. The issue at hand is that things are either going way up or way down depending on which end of the economic ladder you are on.
well anecdotal is just that, of course. For half the day, I get to see a birds eye view of the economic plans at work - the office where folks who have to file for unemployment insurance show up, plus a large number of those seeking work but too poor to have their own computers and such, as well as a large portion of those who are job seeking w/ assistance through friend of the courts programs and/or public assistance. It’s very busy in there. Speaking (anecdotally of course) to them, we find that they’ve lost jobs paying 12$ per hour plus bennies, and are struggling to find something that even pays $8, no bennies.
Several semi large factories in the area closed down w/in the last year or so, sending an additional 500+ newly unemployed into the fray. Our area want ads used to run 12- 14 pages, now they use huge car ads to fill up 4 to 5 pages.
So, from my perspective, things are pretty shitty, over all, for many. Good on you that you’re doing well.
Sure, I read it. He wants to raise taxes on “rich” people (you know, like those evil small business owners that create most of the jobs), and spend money on education, healthcare, and childcare, none of which are properly in the purview of the federal government in the first place. Meh, I’ll take a pass on that plan, thanks anyway.
WeirdDave
When I graduated from college in 2000, I had my choice of jobs. I graduated on Saturday and on Monday walked right into a job paying $5000 more than I even dared to ask for.
(Note that I worked my way through school for 10 years, and this was the entire reason why - so that I could get out of the hourly wage, paycheck-to-paycheck living that I had been limited to until I got that degree.)
Now, 4.5 years later, I just got laid off for a second time. In one layoff the entire company - a small division of a corporation - shut the entire office down. In the other, a small company like you describe above, I was simply the least senior person and thus the first to go when money got tight.
I went from a job making $5K more than I ever dared to ask for, to a job where I took a nice, hefty pay cut in order to grovel for a job. Now, I’m unemployed again and grateful to get benefits that will end in another four months. My best friend (who had two masters degrees), my cousin, and myself were all unemployed at the same time - what are the odds of that?
My cousin just got a job at Starbucks making $7 per hour and is unbelievably grateful that she at least has that. I, however, have no idea how the fuck she’s going to make ends meet and her apartment won’t let her out of her lease. She’s about one missed payment away from losing her car and if she does she’s, quite simply, screwed. My friend has no more benefits and the temp work is hit or miss, lots of work for two weeks and then no work for three. I bought her gas last week because she has about $50 in the bank with no more coming in at the moment.
I have no problem with your anecdotal evidence, just as I’m sure you have no problem with mine. But your statement
was way the fuck out of line. I’m not full of jack shit except frustration at the state of the economy today.
Well, Skippy, since my job depends on the continued growth and expansion of small businesses, a sector of the economy who are much more vulernable to negative economic issues because they don’t have the resources of large corporations, and I don’t do well if they don’t do well, I see things from a different perspective. What I am looking at is not how I am doing in specific, but how my clients are doing that enables them to utilize the services I have to offer. If they were doing poorly, I wouldn’t be doing well myself. If small business in America is thriving, then the economy as a whole can’t be doing too badly. I am sorry you personally are in a tough spot, however, hope it gets better for you soon. What profession are you in, anyway?
Wring,
I am curious, since you work in unemployeement (and thus not suprised that you see the economic situation as “poor”, after all, all you see day after day is unemployeed people). From what I recall from my economics classes lo these many years ago, somewhere around 5% unemployeed is considered “full” employment. In other words, no matter what other factors exist, around 5% of the working population will be unemployeed at any given time for a variety of natural reasons. Since the current unemployment rate is 5.something percent, how is this indicative of a poor economy?
He wants to raise taxes on people who make more than $200,000 a year. Fine by me. He’s never used the word ‘rich’ to describe such people; they are indisputably able to pay more in taxes than those lower on the income chain.
My mileage may vary. But that’s a fair answer and an honest opinion - thanks.
Right now I am a clerk in the deli of a local grocery store. My income is looking at about 12k a year. I can’t get affordable benefits due to a corporate policy of having 60% part-time and only 40% full time. The want ads in the local paper are about a half a page long, and the job market is so stuffed due to lay offs and local small businesses going under that even the temp agencies around here are turning people away. Add in a couple of months bad weather affecting the local tourism and the fit has officially hit the shan.
Any time you want to apologize for the “full of it statement.” Feel free.
dave didya notice the rest of my post - as in major employers shutting their doors, people working more than one job, no benefits in the next job - which goes along w/kimstus insightful post wrt actual income of people.
“Unemployment rates” is merely one side of the picture. we do, indeed have relatively lower unemployment rates, however, again from what I observe (which of course is what you were posting about, too), the people are needing to work more than one job, have no health insurance, and have a net loss of income from years gone by, and it is taking longer and longer for them to secure employment from a layoff or whatever.
So, anectdotal stuff may be interesting, but unless you attempt to look at the bigger picture as well, you may not have an accurate knowledge of the situation.
So, in addtion to watching what I see around me in the office, I also attend the local workforce development meetings where the bigger issues get fleshed out, and the bigger picture isn’t all that encouraging either.
another point for you to reflect on, dave - you point out that your POV is on ‘small’ businesses, and they seem to be flourishing. That’s a good thing, yes, but you do need to still realize ‘net job loss’ is a significant issue - that is
look at the ‘new jobs’ that your small employers are creating - what’s the pay rate? are benefits involved? how many of them are there? (both companies and new employees)
to counter the effect of one of the recent factory closings in my area, 260 new jobs with benefits, paying about $14 per hour would have to be created. Are you really seeing that level of growth? and that would be to just keep even. with one of the major factories that went under. (outsourcing, in case you wondered).
Uhh…just thinking about history here but, isn’t that the kind of trend that could lead to a massive class war?
That would look really good on Bush’s record.
Please tell us you’re kidding. “Workforce development meetings”? The mind boggles. They tried similiar policies in the Soviet Union, and we all know how well that worked out. :rolleyes:
TYM: He wants to raise taxes on people who make more than $200,000 a year.
And considering that these are the people whose incomes have been going up (pretty steeply too, in many cases) while most people’s incomes have been stagnant or falling, it sounds as though they can afford it.
Wd: If small business in America is thriving, then the economy as a whole can’t be doing too badly.
Geez, I hope it’s not economic advice that your clients are paying you for! It is really naive to say that the health of the economy as a whole can be gauged just by looking at one subset (your clients) of one type of employer (small businesses).
For one thing, business owners as a whole are wealthier than the average American. Consider this 2001 study from the Small Business Administration (PDF) that found that in 1998, 25% of business owners (the vast majority of whom are small business owners) had household incomes over $100,000, as compared to 6% of non-business-owners.
In other words, the income inequality data show that people at the higher income levels are indeed doing quite well economically. Many small business owners are among them, so you shouldn’t be surprised that many of them doing well too (especially those in fields other than agriculture, construction, and manufacturing).
This, however, don’t prove jack shit about how well the average worker, who doesn’t own a business and isn’t wealthy enough to start one, is doing in the current state of the economy. Climb down out of your ivory tower and look at the overall picture.
That’s one of the most outlandish things I’ve read here.
milroyj: * “Workforce development meetings”? The mind boggles. They tried similiar policies in the Soviet Union, and we all know how well that worked out.*
Considering that the current Administration—which is the absolute poster child for a low-tax, laissez-faire, market-driven approach to jobs creation—has ended up being the first since Herbert Hoover’s actually to lose net jobs, I don’t think their supporters have too much room to sneer at other people’s attempts to deal with the problem.
Take it up w/Congress. The Workforce Investment Act, aka Public law 105-220 is the Federal government’s jobs legislation (taking over from the Job Training Partnership Act several years ago). the Work force development boards are a requirment of same and are made up (mandated) of groups of Business leaders, legislative bodies, educational resources, union representation (mostly businesses though). These boards decide how to spend the federal (and often local as well) jobs monies, and attempt to develop plans to positively effect the local economic growth, encouraging small and large businesses, etc etc. You might want to have some idea of what I was talking about before rolling your eyes.
Passed by that Bolshevik Congress in 1998.
Presenting rational arguments to milroyj is like giving a pig a songbook.
Well, Skippy, it ain’t all rosy out there, so we’ll leave your evidence wholly in the anecdotal category, and work with real data.
Every year, the difference between new small businesses opening their doors and existing small businesses closing their doors is narrowing. There was a difference of 97,123 in 1995. In 2003, the estimated difference was only 18,100. And considering how often they’ve recently been downgrading all business estimates, it might be much worse than that, but we’ll have to wait and see.
I personally am doing great, but I’m in one of the markets that was hit hardest, and am fully aware of the struggles of those in my field. That’s why anecdotal evidence sucks. If I were to go by my personal situation, I’d tell you that the tech market is peachy. It’s not. I’m also fully aware that while I happen to be very good at what I do, that’s not why I’m doing great professionally at this time. It’s pure luck. I know plenty of people who are perfectly capable of doing my job, but can’t find a place to do it.
So, keep the blinders on, and when the day arrives that both your and my luck run out, remember which of us was here rubbing people’s faces in the dirt.