Dungeons and Dragons 4th ed. preview: Swamp Hobbits!

The Game Room
121

[QUOTE=smiling bandit]
Sadly, I think it’s another sign of the anime-zation of the game.
[/QUOTE]

I would class this more as MMO-ization, I think. MMOs love the “looming shadow” thing, and “Shadowfell” sounds like they just stole a zone name directly from World of Warcraft.

I have no intention of using their cosmology, if I should ever use the system. That kind of crap belongs in a setting, not the core rules, and should have no effect at all on gameplay unless you choose to use that setting. I have my own multiverse, and I’ll run it my way.

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I quite agree with all their reasons for dumping the Great Wheel cosmology, and the Inner Planes.

While the Inner Planes were an interesting metaphysic, they weren’t actually conducive to adventuring there. It’s a plane of Fire, and everything there is On Fire. Either adventurers there have complete protection from the fire, and so it is effectively like any other place they adventure in (albeit, with different SFX). Or, they’re not protected from fire, and they roast (rather unfun). Likewise, the other elemental planes – Air was relatively hospitable, but you’re screwed without fly; Earth… well, it’s all solid, and where it’s not solid, it’s just like the Underdark; Water, is just like underwater adventures. Really an idea that needed re-imaging.

(“Underdark”, by the way, dates back to Forgotten Realms, AFAIK. Don’t go blaming that one on 4.0 out of ignorance.)

The Great Wheel, again, was a great metaphysic, but too detailed. Even in Planescape where it made a great setting, there were just too many outer planes for each of them to be distinct. E.g., the Abyss and the Nine Hells were distinct, each with their own concept and flavor. Hades was basically “Evil, but not the Abyss or the Hells.” Which left two or four vaguely in-between outer planes of Evilness that had no schtick to call their own. Pandemonium was… not quite as Chaosy as Limbo, not quite as evil as the Abyss; ah, yes, clear as mud.

The outer planes of Good were even more bland and distinguishless. And neither the Law nor Chaos axis had any sort of coherence at all (as, at least, the Blood War did for the Evils, and the vague cooperativeness of the Goods did). The Great Wheel seriously needed pruning to no more than eight, maybe down to four, outer planes.

And plopping the gods down onto Outer Planes willy-nilly ended up with some seriously odd results if you wanted to use pantheons like the Olympians or Asgardians. If you’re a CE worshipper of Ares, would you go to the Abyss (or Pandemonium or etc.) 'cause that’s your alignment? or to Olympus, 'cause that’s where Ares is along with his pantheon?

[QUOTE=Terrifel]
Shadows are not scary. You’ll note that mythologies around the world all have innumerable vivid and compelling tales of the undead: how to placate them, how to drive them away, how to send them to their final rest. There is no remotely comparable body of myth dealing with shadows, because nobody is afraid of them. Fear of shadow is the essential characteristic of cowards and infants. Therefore, let us have no more talk of Shadow ever again, anywhere.
[/QUOTE]

But this: not opinion; just wrong. There are many mythologies around the world that have innumerable vivid and compelling tales of shadows. As well as many works of literature. Where do you think the shadow (monster) came from? Or the shadow spells that’ve been around since AD&D (illusionist-only, at the time).

Hell. Do yourself a favor and go pick up The Charwoman’s Shadow by Lord Dunsany. And The King of Elfland’s Daughter, too. I don’t know what kind of twee D&D you were hoping for, but adding the Feywild that’s more like the latter, even while dumping the Great Wheel, can only be an improvement. It is physically and metaphysically impossible that something more like Dunsany is a bad thing in any way. I mean, damn.

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[QUOTE=Lightray]
But this: not opinion; just wrong. There are many mythologies around the world that have innumerable vivid and compelling tales of shadows. As well as many works of literature. Where do you think the shadow (monster) came from? Or the shadow spells that’ve been around since AD&D (illusionist-only, at the time).
[/quote]
Yeah, those illusionist spells were goddamn terrifying, all right. I can’t even count the number of times I’ve heard kids beg to dress up for Halloween as a shadow-casting illusionist.

Feel free to illustrate my wrongness by citing any of these innumerable vivid and compelling tales of shadows… oh wait, you can’t! Because nobody’s ever heard of any! Hmm, let’s see, what famous horror novels and movies about scary shadows come to mind offhand? That would be… why yes, there are none! Not even the pulp hero the Shadow tried to scare people with his shadow. In fact he was invisible, so he didn’t even have a shadow! This fact cannot be overstated: the Shadow had no shadow.

By contrast, let us consider the undead… have we heard of any myths, legends, books or movies that feature the undead? Hmm… hmmm. Say, there may be just a few mightn’t there? Are there any stories in global mythology that feature ghosts? Could be… I’m not saying that there are as many stories about ghosts as there are about shadows, you understand… Do we know of any myths or legends about people coming back from the dead? Have any novels or movies about vampires or zombies been produced, to anyone’s knowledge? Gosh, compared to the vast pile of literature and cinema about shadows, there may not even be any competition. But there may have been one or two such efforts. Their names escape me at the moment. Perhaps someone else could help me out here.

Perhaps I exaggerated just a trifle regarding the mention of shadows in mythology. No doubt there are a few shameful traditions here and there that reflect a fear of shadows, much as other traditions reflect a fear of tomatoes. Still, it is undeniable that the most commonly known shadow in fantasy literature is Peter Pan’s.

Well crap, that’s the answer right there, isn’t it? They could have just called it “Elfland!” That’s a much more resonant name than “Feywild.”* Is Dunsany still under copyright? Huzzah! Let us away to the plane of Elfland! There to treat with the Eladrin King! And thence to Shadowfell to battle the Raven Queen! And onward to Underdark to fight the Spider Queen! And hence to Feydark to elf the Wild King! And fell to Shadowdark to land the Underqueen!

*Sadly, I’m not even kidding. As planar names go, “Feywild” is feysad. At least “Elfland” has literary roots.

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[QUOTE=Terrifel]
Feel free to illustrate my wrongness by citing any of these innumerable vivid and compelling tales of shadows… oh wait, you can’t! Because nobody’s ever heard of any! Hmm, let’s see, what famous horror novels and movies about scary shadows come to mind offhand? That would be… why yes, there are none! Not even the pulp hero the Shadow tried to scare people with his shadow. In fact he was invisible, so he didn’t even have a shadow! This fact cannot be overstated: the Shadow had no shadow.
[/QUOTE]

I already illustrated your wrongness by citing one of the innumerable vivid and compelling tales of shadows.

But, hey, I’ve got Frazer at hand, let’s see:
“In the island of Wtar there are magicians who can make a man ill by stabbing his shadow with a pike or hacking it with a sword.”
“In the Babar Islands the demons get power over a man’s soul by holding fast to his shadow, or by striking and wounding it.”
“There are stones in Melanesia on which, if a man’s shadow falls, the demon of the stone can draw out his soul.”
“The Mangaians tell of a mighty warrior, Tukaitawa, whose strength waxed and waned with the length of his shadow…”
“The ancients believed that in Arabia if a hyaena trod on a man’s shadow it deprived him of the power of speech and motion…”
That’s only a few chosen from a couple pages of The Golden Bough.

But, wait! You’re going to come up with some other goofy reason to reject those examples so you can keep on flogging your dumb-as-a-bag-of-hair prejudices. How about some more examples?

“Shades” in mythology, are generally equated with the souls of the dead. Greeks held shades to be the souls of the dead – creepy shadows that wanted to drink warm blood. Egyptians held the shadow to be one of your souls, occasionally used for various whackiness with spells and such.

Not enough? There’s more! Shadow People are creepy horror archetypes that still get as much play as do the Grays and their alien abductions and anal probings.

Frankly, I don’t remember (and can’t be arsed to go look up for you) the number of legends that have sorcerers or vampires or whatnot stealing people’s shadows or doing nasty things to people’s shadows.

You may only be familiar with Peter Pan’s shadow as an example, but the rest of the world might just be a tad bit more well-read than you from your library of one Disney movie and maybe the Shadow and some vampire and zombie movies.

[QUOTE=Terrifel]
*Sadly, I’m not even kidding. As planar names go, “Feywild” is feysad. At least “Elfland” has literary roots.
[/QUOTE]

They wanted a name they could copyright, because they’re running a business here – so “Elfland” was right out. Also: to scoff at “Feywild” after lamenting the loss of the “Negative Energy Plane” is back into the bag-of-hair there.

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[QUOTE=Lightray]
I already illustrated your wrongness by citing one of the innumerable vivid and compelling tales of shadows.
[/quote]
You did? Oh sorry, I overlooked that part. I assume you are referring to *The Charwoman’s Shadow * by Dunsany? Oh my god, it’s not just any shadow either! It’s a charwoman’s shadow! That’s extra terrifying, isn’t it? Let’s see if Wikipedia has a plot summary… why yes it does!

Oh my god. That is quite possibly the most horrifying premise I have ever read. I now see just how wrong I was about the potential scariness of shadows. Why the hell do myth and fantasy even bother with revenants and unquiet spirits, when they could instead be chilling the blood of listeners with tales of shadows that don’t grow and shrink properly?

No, I have changed my mind completely. These examples are infinitely more frightening than the living dead. How can mere flesh-eating abominations compete with the terror of a hyena stepping on my shadow, thereby depriving me of speech and motion? Why aren’t there entire horror film franchises devoted to stories of people getting their shadows stepped on?

Oh god no, please, my heart can’t take it.

Which precisely illustrates my original point: did the Greeks consider the summoning of blood-drinking shades to be “shadow magic?” No! They understood that it was necromancy, the summoning of undead spirits. The Greeks knew their eggs about such matters.

Maybe the ancient Egyptians thought otherwise; but let us not lose sight of the fact that the ancient Egyptians were cat-worshipping freaks, whose judgment in such matters should not be trusted. Even so, when the fate of the soul was really in question, they sensibly had themselves mummified instead of dicking around with unreliable shadow-spells.

Um… yeah. Sure they do. I think it’s totally safe to say that pop culture references “Shadow People” about as much as Alien Grays.

Oh you needn’t bother; after the vast number of examples you’ve already provided-- one novel, no movies, and several references in The Golden Bough about people falling over when their shadows are stepped on-- I am entirely persuaded that shadows are way more mythically resonant and intimidating than undead creatures.

Heck, vampires don’t even cast a shadow in some traditions-- which logically means they’re significantly less frightening than other creatures that do cast shadows. A truly scary vampire would probably have TWO shadows.

This is entirely possible. But even with my crippling illiteracy, I could probably name several hundred stories and films that feature the undead just from memory if I really bothered to try, and I bet you could too. Although I doubt that any of them could surpass The Charwoman’s Shadow for sheer terror value. Just the thought of that shadow not shrinking properly is still giving me the wim wams. I may not sleep at all tonight. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to correct my error about how much scarier shadows are than the living dead.

Oh, bullhockey; nothing simpler than to add an extra vowel or two for copyright purposes-- “Elflande,” or “Aelfland”-- it’s a proud tradition of limp fantasy everywhere. Maybe even some extra punctuation? “A’elflaen’de!” You could probably even copyright “The Elflandish Plane.” Notice how all these are still marginally more plausible-sounding than “Feywild?”

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I suspect that my last post was needlessly sarcastic; especially insofar as it addresses the mythopoetic underpinnings of a fantasy cosmology as it applies to a game that I currently don’t anticipate even playing. I apologize, Lightray.

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[QUOTE=Terrifel]
Feel free to illustrate my wrongness by citing any of these innumerable vivid and compelling tales of shadows… oh wait, you can’t! Because nobody’s ever heard of any!
[/QUOTE]

I believe one or two Dopers may have heard of the book A Clash of Kings by George R. R. Martin, which is Book 2 of the obscure series A Song of Ice and Fire (links contain spoil-riffic plot summaries). Here are two passages:

[spoiler]“I beg you in the name of the Mother,” Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king’s shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly’s sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword . . .

“Cold,” said Renly in a small puzzled voice, a heartbeat before the steel of his gorget parted like cheesecloth beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there. He had time to make a small thick gasp before the blood came gushing out of his throat.

…The king stumbled into [Brienne’s] arms, a sheet of blood creeping down the front of his armor, a dark red tide that drowned his green and gold. More candles guttered out. Renly tried to speak, but he was choking on his own blood.

[several chapters later]

Davos raised a hand to shield his eyes, and his breath caught in his throat. Melisandre had thrown back her cowl and shrugged out of the smothering robe. Beneath, she was naked, and huge with child. Swollen breasts hung heavy against her chest, and her belly bulged as if near to bursting. “Gods preserve us,” he whispered, and heard her answering laugh, deep and throaty. Her eyes were hot coals, and the sweat that dappled her skin seemed to glow with a light of its own. Melisandre shone.

Panting, she squatted and spread her legs. Blood ran down her thighs, black as ink. Her cry might have been agony or ectasy or both. And Davos saw the crown of the child’s head push its way out of her. Two arms wriggled free, grasping, black fingers coiling around Melisandre’s straining thighs, pushing, until the whole of the shadow slid out into the world and rose taller than Davos, tall as the tunnel, towering above the boat. He had only an instant to look at it before it was gone, twisting between the bars of the portcullis and racing across the surface of the water, but that instant was long enough.[/spoiler]
You’re right, those aren’t even mildly unsettling scenes. Kinda boring, actually.

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[QUOTE=sturmhauke]
You’re right, those aren’t even mildly unsettling scenes. Kinda boring, actually.
[/QUOTE]
Oh, for crying out loud; I know there are fantasy stories that feature shadows as antagonists! I was exaggerating my complaint, in an attempt at comic effect! Which obviously failed! This is exactly why I pointedly requested no further discussion of Shadow by anyone ever again. Why do you all refuse to honor this simple request?

Yes, I am fully aware that shadow magic has some legitimate fictional and mythic antecedents. Yes, I recall the beast from A Wizard of Earthsea. Yes, I realize that the pulp crimefighter known as the Shadow actually DID cast a shadow, but people just didn’t notice it because of his ability to cloud men’s minds. I’d have thought people would catch that right away as an indication I wasn’t being entirely serious.

My point, shorn of all hyperbole, was simply that slapping “shadow-” in front of everything does not immediately lend itself toward particularly interesting or automatically frightening roleplay. 3rd Edition offered the opportunity to learn Shadow Magic, travel to the Shadow Plane and mix it up with Shadow creatures. Whoopie ding.

4th Edition’s “Shadowfell,” we are told, will be “a twisted copy of the Material Plane” just as the earlier Shadow Plane was described. I never even really understood how that was supposed to work. So there’s another whole plane that is mostly identical to the Material Plane, but just happens to be occupied by weirdly twisted copies of things?

In the “Worlds and Monsters” preview, the designers boast that discarding the Great Wheel cosmology was a necessary step away from “needless symmetry;” yet their replacement for this is basically Mirror Earth where everybody wears goatees and carries agonizers. “You appear to be standing in the same place you were before, except everything is more evil. And shadowy. Oh and twisted. Suddenly you are attacked by a bobcat! But… it’s a Shadow bobcat!”

At least the Negative Energy Plane had the benefit of simplicity. It’s a plane that radiates anti-life magic, and this is how dead creatures are able to move around. That’s really all that is necessary to know. It’s not going out of its way to be ostentatiously spooky; it’s just a source of raw, deadly power that is naturally antithetical to life. Personally I happen to think that’s a more fundamentally disturbing notion than a vaguely purposeful “Shadow Realm” ruled by a “Raven Queen.” It’s a void that hates you-- very Nietzschean. The “Shadowfell” proposes to replace this with a weird, intricate justification for the undead that requires every creature to have at least two souls (maybe one of them lives in your shadow? Ah, it’s all coming together now).

Yes, shadows CAN be scary; but as has been demonstrated already, you have to really go out of your way to find any examples in myth and fiction where they actually ARE scary. There are individual vampires with more cultural impact than the entire body of fiction and global myth concerning shadows. Every year we see another round of inexpensive zombie movies made-- yet movies about shadows would, if anything, be even cheaper to film than movies about zombies! No kid asks to dress up as a shadow for Halloween (I did, but that’s just because I wanted to dress in a black leotard and spend the evening frantically miming the actions of other people).

To sum up: “When there is no more room in Hell, the dead will walk the Earth.” Scary!

“Okay, watch this… it’s a bunny! Now… presto! A pigeon flapping its wings!” Not scary.

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Point == Terrifel.

Shadows just plain aren’t very scary things, unless there’s something out there in them. And in DnD, there’s always something out there in them. Nor does it particularly twig my Cool-o-meter.

My opinion remains unchanged; there were good changes which could have been made in DnD 4. I just don’t see them actually happening. Change for the sake of change. And selling books. They think they’re going to sell miniatures on an on forever, but I don’t see it.

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4e’s cosmology and flavor do nothing for me in the abstract and are incompatible with the custom campaign worlds I want to run.

And Terrifel, I thought your posts were very funny.

You know what’s better than “Feywild”? “Arvandor.” Evocative. Not retarded. And it originated with D&D. The extraplanar mystic realm of the Elves.

I have little patience for change for change’s sake, especially when the new result is less than the old.

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[QUOTE=Terrifel]
I suspect that my last post was needlessly sarcastic; especially insofar as it addresses the mythopoetic underpinnings of a fantasy cosmology as it applies to a game that I currently don’t anticipate even playing. I apologize, Lightray.
[/QUOTE]

It looks like I overreacted, myself. This week has been working my last nerve. My apologies, also.

(but, seriously, I recommend Lord Dunsany)

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[QUOTE=Terrifel]
Oh, for crying out loud; I know there are fantasy stories that feature shadows as antagonists! I was exaggerating my complaint, in an attempt at comic effect! Which obviously failed!
[/quote]

It didn’t fail, I was just riposting in like manner.

Because I am a contrarian bastard. :smiley:

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[QUOTE=sturmhauke]
It didn’t fail, I was just riposting in like manner.

Because I am a contrarian bastard. :smiley:
[/QUOTE]

Are you saying you have a Ring Of Contrariness?

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[QUOTE=DocCathode]
Are you saying you have a Ring Of Contrariness?
[/QUOTE]

Don’t be ridiculous.

135

Ya know? The spoiler box is like a shadow.

[spoiler]The text in here is spooky!

SPOOKY! I TELL YOU!

[/spoiler]