Thank you! ::bats eyelashes::. But I have to agree that there are some pretty beautiful places in Belgium, too. Gent, Leuven, Brugge, Oostende…wow.
Well Merkwurdig, You’ve gotten some good information in this thread. If you want some practical advice on how to get to Europe, I advise you to check out travel guides. Last time I checked, the “Lets Go” series had a volume “Lets Go Europe”. It gave quick outlines on the culture of each country, and it had a chapter on (temporarily) working in Europe, including all sorts of youth exchange-possibilities and some good (web)adresses to start gathering information.
As for you being 5ft 8 inch, well, the real question is if *you * like 6 foot tall women. The Dutch come in all sizes, but are on average very tall. (Belgians and Germans ore much more “normal"in size”, though still tall). Here as anywhere, most women like a guy to be taller then they are. But on the other hand, feminism is a strong force over here and I see quite a lot of women with guys who are smaller then they.
I’m Indian, and am pretty fluent in German (worked in Munich). I have plenty of Dutch friends - at one point I was staying in a house with 5 Dutch guys and one Belgian. I found I could actually read quite a bit of Dutch (plenty of car magazines lying around!)… the first time I read an article I was shocked at how much I could understand!
I thought it was due to the similarity to German, but funnily enough, many of my friends kept insisting that Dutch was more similar to English!
Re: xenophobia in the Netherlands: I did speak once with some of my friends about it (all around 26yo), and I got the impression that they resented the fact that foreigners refused to integrate into Dutch society (much like the Turks in Germany). “At least learn the language!” is what they were saying.
I’m 6’1". and there were plenty of people taller than me! Very depressing, when you’re used to looking downwards while talking with someone (even in Germany, I was among the taller people).
Merkwurdigliebe or Dr. Strangelove, [yeah, I love that movie. Best Sellars one, imho]
Like every other country, unemployment is growing in the Netherlands. I’m not exactly sure what you do. What do people do with an BA in International Relations?
Here’s an article about Jobs in the Netherlands. Maybe that will help?
Oh, and gouda In all fairness: I don’t think the Dutch suffer from xenophobia. The lessening of tolerance has to do with criminal activities of a few muslim youths. Speaking our language has nothing to do with it. No-one expect a foreigner to speak Dutch. It’s not a world-language and it’s weird.
4 clogs out of 10 for me on the quiz. But then I’m a southener, we don’t really act like your typical Dutch and are a bit smaller too. We got our own flaws, though.
And Vreemdliefde (Merkwaardigliefde if you wish) I “got” your name too, just didn’t mention it.
On that topic you’ll be happy to know no films or programs in Holland are dubbed. They are all subtitled unless they are for the under tens who can’t read quickly enough. German speaking Klingons (Die Klingonen) are kind of fun, but it’s nice to have programs in their orginal language IMO.
As for jobs. I suppose you have already consired this, but I suppose you need a work permit of some kind. I have a friend from the States and she wasn’t legal to work here in Ireland unless she could get a company to sponsor her. I suppose the rules for Holland will be similar.
I admit, my opinion was formed after speaking with just 3 Dutch guys (if it makes a difference, all from the northern part of the Netherlands). Not exactly a big sample, but IMO they were fairly representative of their generation.
FWIW, crime did figure in the conversation, but it wasn’t that much of an issue for these guys. I think the younger generations understand better (than their parents, for example) that it’s a few bad elements of a particular community at fault, and not the community itself. No, their resentment did stem from the fact that there was very little effort made towards integration with Dutch society - which I totally understand and in fact agree with.
If you’re going to live in country, benefit from it’s rather admirable social conditions (as opposed to those in the old country) , etc., at least do a little bit to melt in. Adapt a bit. I know it’s difficult for 1st and 2nd generation immigrants, but if even after that there is segregation, then I understand the resentment.
I just had a little chat with one of my Dutch buddies - he’s a good friend now, and we’re pretty frank with each other.
I told him about this particular part of the debate, and what his view on racism is(he didn’t know ‘xenophobia’). He said that it is a growing problem, and the reason for it is lack of integration.
His exact words were, “people don’t know each other”, and “yes the biggest question is how do you force people to integrate or should you force people to integrate and by how far”.
IMO, learning the language goes a long way in addressing that issue. Admittedly, Dutch is not an easy language to speak (how on earth do you not spit at each other while talking?!), but is it too much to ask to make the effort?
France with their headscarf ban is an extreme step, no doubt, but surely there is a middle path?
I believe there’s a misunderstanding about “speaking the language”. Like I said: No-one expect you to speak Dutch. It *is * an odd language and most dutchies speak English [of a sort].
Racism is indeed a growing problem. Not in the first place because of the lack of integration, however. I agree: things might be easier if people integrated more. One can get irritated when you try to speak English, French, German or Dutch, to someone - living in the Netherlands for years - and they don’t understand you. Irritated. No more.
Things become ugly when a few Maroccan or Turkish youths commit crime after crime, [including shooting a teacher through the head] while complaining they are not understood and the dutch ought to read the quoran more.
That breeds racism. That’s where I’m afraid of.
We used to be a very tolerant people. I wish we could go back to tolerance.
Hmmm. I don’t know, Gum. I have indeed heard the “learn the language” argument that Gouda mentions. Curiously I have the notion that this mainly applies to Turkish and Moroccan people. Merkwurdig as an American will not get a lot of hassle for not speaking Dutch. It’s part of the wider integration issue, where people don’t mind and isolated, western foreigner speaking English to them, but object to groups of people speaking only their own language and generally sticking together with a minimum of interaction with the rest of the country.
I think this is a tricky issue. You can have an opinion on what the best way of living together and getting along is, but when you bring this issue up I think there are some people (not yourself, Gum!) who then quickly move into sweeping generilisations about what Turkish/Moroccan people are like what they ought to be doing. I don’t want to end discussions as soon as they start because the topic does need discussing. I also think people may be criticised for their actions whatever their ethnicity, but you know how these things go and their is certainly plenty of racism towards these groups in Holland.
P.s. Merkwurdig, don’t worry. This is just a bunch of Dutchies/people who know Dutchies going off on a topic that’s kind of hot in the media. I don’t want you to think that Holland is an utterly racist nation. Although it does exist I do think that we are worse than most countries.
Like I said in one of my previous posts, my wife thinks the Dutch are less racist than the Germans, and I would tend to agree with her. Also, from my own experiences some of the most racist countries in Europe are Austria, Switzerland, France and the UK (not necessarily in that order). But always note that it is actually wrong on my part or anyone else’s part to label an entire country racist. As anywhere in the world, there are individuals who are racist and others who are not. The only difference is how much influence these racist individuals have, how many of them exist, and what the non-racist people can do to curb their influence.
Looking at these criteria there are indeed also racists in Holland, and their influence and numbers are growing. As mentioned above, this might well be due to the fact that so many recent immigrants from Turkey and Morroco are having trouble integrating with the Dutch way of life. Also, many people are now saying that the Dutch government has to begin to harden some of it’s “bleeding heart” stances when it comes to facing problems with integration of immigrants.
In my opinion, this is all just a repitition of previous history. Look at the problems the Dutch at first had with all the Indonesians, Mollucans, Antillians and Surinamese. Nobody talks about them anymore. Now it’s all “kut marokaanen”, etc. In ten years it will be some other nationality or race that the racists will start bashing.
I was surprised by the German racism, but my exgirlfriend would openly talk about it, and she could be pretty intolerant. I never really understood how people could be very embarassed of what Hitler did on the one hand, and 5 minutes later talk about how the Turks annoy them, or how Arabic people are stupid in general. That truely amazed me. But the Dutch that I’ve met didn’t really seem to be hesitant to tell me their stance. I can say that I do understand. However as an American it is hard for me to make a criticism against integration. True, I as an American could go to Holland and only speak English, but I think that I’ll do my best to learn Dutch. Not only because I like learning languages and that I think it’ll be a little easier for me, but because it sounds really funny. I would love to be able to talk like that!
This is a really good example of one of the main differences between Germans and Dutch. The Dutch are very direct and honest. If a Dutchman thinks you’re an assh***, he’ll tell you. If a German thinks you’re an assh*** he’ll be polite, but once you turn your back, the knife will be sticking out your ribs.
And you are correct about the seeming paradox between the general abhorrence for what occured during the Nazi regime, and the prevalent racism against Turks and Arabs (and Vietnamese in Eastern Germany). I think these people kind of rationalize their thinking by saying to themselves: “Oh, but at least I have nothing against Jews, like Adolf did”. Even so there have been an alarming number of antisemitic incidents in Germany lately. Just look up “Jürgen Möllemann” or “Martin Walser”.
Exactly. Which means we - not I, indeed. I’m one of those “bleeding hearts” - don’t have a problem with the language, “we” have a problem with Turkish and Morroccan criminals. People - especially the less educated - generalize. When some idiots [of the above nationality] commit crimes, bigots get their satisfaction.
And Mycroft Holmes, Racists are indeed everywhere. It is such a hot topic in the Netherlands because we always thought we were so tolerant. :rolleyes: I truly believe, though, there aren’t many racists here. Sadly, some are on the wrong places in society.
Merkwurdigliebe No worries. We’ll teach you how to speak Dutch without spitting.
- don’t have a problem with the language, “we” have a problem with Turkish and Morroccan criminals. People - especially the less educated - generalize. When some idiots [of the above nationality] commit crimes, bigots get their satisfaction.