Easier to buy a machine gun or get driver's licence in US?

Great Debates
61

[QUOTE=xtisme]
The statement is still wrong if we are talking about a machine gun…or any other fully automatic weapon. Any ordinary citizen can get a drivers license…very few can get a machine gun. Even if we are talking about just a gun, the statement is misleading…as its only often easier to get a gun than a drivers license depending on where in the country we are talking about…and your definition of ‘easier’.

[/quote]

Don’t want to belabor the point, but the article only said it’s “often” easier; not that it’s easier in every state.

Also, I’m wondering where you arrive at the conclusion that “very few” ordinary citizens can get a machine gun. I would guess that few have the inclination to buy one, but I’m not seeing as how they couldn’t were they so inclined.

It would be nice if you’d explain why this is the case, rather than simply asserting it.

I thought that maybe since this is GD, that we’d avoid the type of snide responses that happen in The Pit, but perhaps I was overly-optimistic.

I’m not aware that you have to pass any tests to get a machine gun. I will happily change my position if anyone has evidence to the contrary.

I disagree. If you are trying to determine the safety of a particular item, you would have to compare the number of incidents with the total number of items (or uses). Are you familiar with the concept of normalizing data?

Example: Joe’s hardware sold a total of 4 ladders and 4 people were injured when ladders malfunctioned. Home Depot sold a total of 36 million ladders (by a different manufacturer), and 4 people were injured when ladders malfunctioned.

Would you say the ladders from Joe’s Hardware are exactly as safe as the ladders from Home Depot?

62

[QUOTE=xtisme]
:stuck_out_tongue: “Mr. Pott, phone call, line 2. Its Mr. Kettle. He’s calling you black again…”

-XT
[/QUOTE]

What are you talking about? As far as I know, I’ve been civil in this thread. Did I write something that you object to?

63

[QUOTE=E-Sabbath]
Most of those aren’t machine guns. None of the AR-15s there are automatic action. I don’t know who’s buying those M-16s, but I suspect police departments. Technically, they’re not machine guns, either. I didn’t bother to check the unfamiliar models, after seeing those glaring errors.

[/QUOTE]

O.K., thanks for the correction. I still don’t think the article meant that machine guns are inexpensive when it said “easier to buy”, though.

I also don’t understand why you can’t simply debate this without gratuitous attacks. I’m hoping you’ll cut that out.

64

[QUOTE=lowbrass]
Don’t want to belabor the point, but the article only said it’s “often” easier; not that it’s easier in every state.
[/QUOTE]

And I don’t want to belabor the point (ok, both of us obviously DO want to do so :wink: ), but its rarely easier to get a machine gun than a driver’s license. Now, I suppose if someone wanted to play word games…but in general ‘often’ does not equal ‘rarely’. YMMV of course.

[QUOTE=lowbrass]
Also, I’m wondering where you arrive at the conclusion that “very few” ordinary citizens can get a machine gun. I would guess that few have the inclination to buy one, but I’m not seeing as how they couldn’t were they so inclined.
[/QUOTE]

I get it from reality. In general ‘ordinary citizens’ can’t GET a machine gun…at least afaik. Now, if you’d like to produce a cite showing that me, an ordinary citizen CAN get one (and further can get one easily), then by all means…do so.

[QUOTE=lowbrass]
It would be nice if you’d explain why this is the case, rather than simply asserting it.
[/QUOTE]

Its BEEN explained to you. You can’t get one except in special circumstances with a special permit…one you can’t just go to Walmart to get. What more do you want me to say about it? The only ‘easy’ to get machine guns (if you aren’t in law enforcement, in the military, or have a special need for such a weapon) if you get an existing one (i.e. manufactured in the US prior to 1986 IIRC) transfered to you…and that takes a special background check (and something like $200-300 dollars for the transfer). Its not ‘easy’…its not something the average citizen would know how to do, so its not comparable to getting a driver’s license (which IS easy, and IS something the average citizen can do).

[QUOTE=lowbrass]
I thought that maybe since this is GD, that we’d avoid the type of snide responses that happen in The Pit, but perhaps I was overly-optimistic.
[/QUOTE]

Whats snide about it? As I said, unless your definition of ‘easy’ and ‘difficult’ are outside of normal usage (as well as the term ‘often’) then the position you are attempting to argue for doesn’t hold up under examination. You are trying to argue a point that you obviously don’t know anything about, and then you are offended when I laugh at you?

Well, if my conduct was outside of the parameters of GD I’m sure a mod will spank me eventually. Or you could start a pit thread if you feel you must.

[QUOTE=lowbrass]
I’m not aware that you have to pass any tests to get a machine gun.
[/QUOTE]

Its not that kind of ‘test’. You basically have to get your local law enforcement group to sign off that you have a need for such a weapon…and can HAVE such a weapon. They decide, have you fill out a bunch of paper work etc. Then they do a pretty intensive background check (or at least they are supposed too), and it takes time to process…and they will basically throw out a request from some bozo who just wants to look like Rambo while tenderizing his/her shoulder. Then you have to pay a transfer tax (or transfer license…I forget) of between $200-$300. Does this process sound as easy as getting a driver’s license to YOU?

[QUOTE=lowbrass]
I disagree. If you are trying to determine the safety of a particular item, you would have to compare the number of incidents with the total number of items (or uses). Are you familiar with the concept of normalizing data?
[/QUOTE]

Yes, I’m familiar with the concept. :stuck_out_tongue: As I said, feel free to do so if you want too…it would be interesting to see.

[QUOTE=lowbrass]
What are you talking about? As far as I know, I’ve been civil in this thread. Did I write something that you object to?
[/QUOTE]

Well, object is too strong a word…disagree is more the level we are at (or at lesat where I was at…you seem to be all offended). I didn’t write that joke because I object to anything you said…I wrote it because most of your own posts have been full of YOUR emotional baggage. For that matter, my own have as well…but I didn’t start calling OTHER posters on it, ehe? :stuck_out_tongue:

-XT

65

[QUOTE=xtisme]
And I don’t want to belabor the point (ok, both of us obviously DO want to do so :wink: ), but its rarely easier to get a machine gun than a driver’s license. Now, I suppose if someone wanted to play word games…but in general ‘often’ does not equal ‘rarely’. YMMV of course.

[/quote]

Merely asserting something doesn’t make it true.

“afaik” isn’t really a good cite.

That’s been done. The procedure was posted early in the thread. What special characteristics do you believe a citizen needs to have in order to purchase one?

You can’t get a driver’s license at Walmart either. I thought we were debating which is easier.

Yes, you have to have a background check and you have to pay a fee. For a driver’s license, depending on the circumstances, you need driver’s ed, driver’s training, written exam, road test, fingerprinting, etc.

I believe that you are well aware that you were being snide, and are now being deliberately obtuse.

That’s rich. You have posted nothing except blithe assertions with nothing to back them up.

No, I think you’re carefully skirting the line between breaking the rules and just posting smartass comments. Had I thought you broke a rule, I would have said so. I just hoped we could have a higher level of discourse here. I guess I was hoping for too much, though.

I don’t see how. He was bringing things in apparently from experiences in other threads. I haven’t done that.

I guess I’m about through with you. I think you just want to squabble, and don’t really have any interest in discussing the topic seriously.

66

As you obviously feel about me, your post is by and large content free and not really worth my time. I just wanted to comment on some of the more funny parts and then bid you ado.

Here is the one bit I’m actually curious about…the rest is just for laughs:

[QUOTE=lowbrass]
That’s been done. The procedure was posted early in the thread. What special characteristics do you believe a citizen needs to have in order to purchase one?
[/QUOTE]

I must have missed it. Could you (or preferably someone else) give the post number? I didn’t see anyone link to a procedure for aquiring a machine gun in the US.

[QUOTE=lowbrass]
“afaik” isn’t really a good cite.
[/QUOTE]

True enough. But, at least its an INFORMED ‘afaik’. What do YOU gots exactly? :stuck_out_tongue:

[QUOTE=lowbrass]
Yes, you have to have a background check and you have to pay a fee. For a driver’s license, depending on the circumstances, you need driver’s ed, driver’s training, written exam, road test, fingerprinting, etc.
[/QUOTE]

But you don’t need to go to the police station or local sherriff’s office to get special permission to get a drivers license…just go to DMV and take a test. You don’t need a background check to get a driver’s license…just show up. You can’t be refused a driver’s license on the basis of need (or lack there of)…while most people WOULD be refused permission to aquire an automatic weapon.

Get it? Obviously not.

[QUOTE=lowbrass]
That’s rich. You have posted nothing except blithe assertions with nothing to back them up.
[/QUOTE]

My irony meter exploded. :stuck_out_tongue: Granted, I’ve been incredibly lazy in this thread…simply because the comparison is so stupid I haven’t bothered to look up the information that would fight your ignorance. YOU however have provided less than even I have (which take some doing :stuck_out_tongue: )…because not only have you NOT bothered with cites of your own (it would be amusing to see them as I’m on pretty solid ground when we are talking about MACHINE GUNS), but you don’t even have an informed opinion as you don’t seem to know ANYTHING about the subject.

[QUOTE=lowbrass]
I guess I’m about through with you. I think you just want to squabble, and don’t really have any interest in discussing the topic seriously.
[/QUOTE]

Looking at the rest of your content free post, I have to admit…in this you are right. We are done here. Its been a pleasure. :stuck_out_tongue:

-XT

67

[QUOTE=lowbrass]

I guess I’m about through with you. I think you just want to squabble, and don’t really have any interest in discussing the topic seriously.
[/QUOTE]

I think I agree here. You just want to squabble, and don’t really have any interest in discussing the topic seriously. I’m about through with you.

68

For anyone that actually still cares, the process for buying a Machine gun is:

http://www.impactguns.com/store/machineguns_legalities.html

Basically you need to not be a felon, not be crazy, fill out a form, get finger printed, and live in a state that allows you to. If you are eligible to own a machine gun, it’s really not difficult to acquire one. It may be a giant pain in the ass, but not difficult.

To get a driver’s license varies from state to state, but for Illinois it’s:

Now I’ve taken the two tests, and there is nothing particularly difficult them, but they do require at least some thinking ability and knowledge. It’s a much smaller pain in the ass, but it’s definitely harder than just filling out some forms.

69

A big factor is that driver’s licenses can’t be arbitrarily denied. Everyone gets a fair test. If you can pass it, you get a license.

With NFA weapons, it’s completely up to the disposition of your chief law enforcement guy. There are large areas where no one would be able to get them except friends and bribers of the chief.

This is how CCW permits work in places like California, too. If you’re important, like a senator or an actor, or someone who donated to someone’s campaign, you can legally be able to defend yourself in public. Us unimportant commoner types are out of luck, though.

Usually these same senators/actors/etc are the same people who rail against gun ownership but have a CCW permit themselves. This is okay, though, because they’re enlightened, important people, and we’re not.

70

[QUOTE=minty green]
Yep. The Polizei began carrying Uzis at major airports back in the mid- to late-80s, after a series of terroris bombings, shootings, and hijackings at European airports. They most certainly did not carry them around anywhere else that I ever saw, and I lived over there for quite a few years. The notion that they were “all” armed with submachineguns is patently absurd.
[/QUOTE]

I lived in Munich from 1982-85, and starting in '84 or '85 the Polizei certainly walked through my neighborhood with submachine guns on occasion.

Marc

71

**E-Sabbath ** and SenorBeef, link for the SA rifles.

http://www.anonymousproxy.co.za/wiki/R4_assault_rifle

72

[QUOTE=treis]
Basically you need to not be a felon, not be crazy, fill out a form, get finger printed, and live in a state that allows you to. If you are eligible to own a machine gun, it’s really not difficult to acquire one. It may be a giant pain in the ass, but not difficult.
[/QUOTE]

By your own cite you also need to get those same law enforcement people to sign off on it…not a given. They can (and DO) deny people access all the time. In fact, unless you have a good reason for having an automatic weapon you most likely WILL be denied. Compare that with getting a driver’s license.

Also, there is this part (from your cite…thanks btw :)): “It will usually take 4-6 weeks for the dealer to get the gun from another dealer if they don’t already have it in stock (due to BATF paperwork delays).”

Compare that to going to the DMV, waiting about, taking a test, and walking out with your license.

There simply is no comparison to getting a driver’s license and getting access to a machine gun in the US…not unless your definition of ‘often’ and ‘easier’ are outside the norm.

-XT

73

[QUOTE=lowbrass]
Actually, you’d have to compare the percentage of deaths/injuries with respect to the total number of cars, and likewise with machine guns, since there are no doubt far more cars than there are machine guns.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I searched around online for far too long the other day trying to get some decent statistics on this issue. Ideally, for the gun control debate in general, I’d like to see car deaths (or injuries) per car, versus gun deaths per gun. That I couldn’t find. I was surprised to see that firearm deaths in total are comparable to car deaths in raw numbers, although I couldn’t compare numbers for only one year. I thought cars killed far more people per year than guns in the US, and I think most years they are the leader, but guns were a lot closer than I expected.

And this is why I try to stay out of the statistical side of the gun control debate. Yeah, guns are dangerous (duh). Personally, I think people who claim guns prevent more crimes than they cause are going down the wrong road, regardless of whether they are right or wrong. This is because, to me at least, it doesn’t matter what the statistics are, because I think that freedom outweighs safety most of the time. Unless something like this VT massacre is happening daily in small towns all across America, I think guns are a freedom we should have regardless of the extra people that are going to die from them.

And since car deaths are comparable to gun deaths in number, it makes me think that people who advocate gun control but not “car control” must have some ulterior political motives besides just the safety of the people.

74

[QUOTE=DrCube]
And since car deaths are comparable to gun deaths in number, it makes me think that people who advocate gun control but not “car control” must have some ulterior political motives besides just the safety of the people.
[/QUOTE]

They aren’t. Not even close. Its only when you attempt to link the raw numbers to the numbers of cars vs guns that you get such an equivelency. From a straight probability standpoint, cars are much more dangerous…and its pretty much irrelevent that there are more cars than guns. Straight up you are much more likely to be killed in a car than by a gun.

You could play the same kind of shell game with cars vs air planes. You’d come out with data that seemed to indicate that cars and planes are roughly safer (or maybe that cars are more safe, or whatever the hell is trying to be proved by linking the gross numbers of items to its probability to harm someone)…simply because there are more cars than PEOPLE in this country, while the number of planes is far less. The only rational way to look at it would be from a straight probability perspective…which is more likely to kill you? Driving in a car or flying on a plane? What does the gross numbers of cars vs planes have to do with this? Why factor it in? Does it change the probability of which is more dangerous in any way?

I don’t see it.

-XT

75

[QUOTE=xtisme]
By your own cite you also need to get those same law enforcement people to sign off on it…not a given. They can (and DO) deny people access all the time. In fact, unless you have a good reason for having an automatic weapon you most likely WILL be denied. Compare that with getting a driver’s license.

Also, there is this part (from your cite…thanks btw :)): “It will usually take 4-6 weeks for the dealer to get the gun from another dealer if they don’t already have it in stock (due to BATF paperwork delays).”
[/quote]

I guess it depends on what you mean by hard. Getting a machine gun would be harder if you consider hard to mean “requiring more effort”. Getting a drivers license would be harder if you consider hard to mean “requiring more skill or knowledge”.

76

[QUOTE=DrCube]
Yeah, I searched around online for far too long the other day trying to get some decent statistics on this issue. Ideally, for the gun control debate in general, I’d like to see car deaths (or injuries) per car, versus gun deaths per gun. That I couldn’t find. I was surprised to see that firearm deaths in total are comparable to car deaths in raw numbers, although I couldn’t compare numbers for only one year. I thought cars killed far more people per year than guns in the US, and I think most years they are the leader, but guns were a lot closer than I expected.

[/quote]

One thing to consider is that the majority of gun deaths are suicides.

Gun control advocates like to lump these in with murders and accidental deaths, which I think is a completely dishonest thing to do. The gun was just the most covnenient tool for the suicide and in most cases another tool would’ve been used - the gun itself was almost irrelevant - but they like to add those deaths because it nearly triples the death count over just using murders/accidents.

I sort of agree with those. The most fundamental reason I’m against gun control is indeed a philosophical freedom/issue. But I still argue the other issues, because I feel as though gun ownership is essentially a positive in other ways. I spent some time really researching the issue, and I’ve concluded that in just about every way - philosophically and practically - liberal gun rights are superior to gun control.

77

[QUOTE=treis]
I guess it depends on what you mean by hard. Getting a machine gun would be harder if you consider hard to mean “requiring more effort”. Getting a drivers license would be harder if you consider hard to mean “requiring more skill or knowledge”.
[/QUOTE]

Well, two things. First of all, I think most people would define ‘hard’ as ‘requiring more effort’. I don’t think many people would agree that ‘easy’ in general equals ‘requiring more effort’. Agreed?

As to it being easier from a knowledge standpoint…well, let me ask you a leading question. Do YOU know how to maintain and operate an automatic weapon? In general, do most people? Because, unless there is corruption involved, your ability to receive one is going to hinge on those skills. Granted, if you HAVE this rather specialized knowledge it may be easier than getting a license for you. In think that it would be a wash for such a person as far as whats easier or whats more difficult.

Driving however is NOT a specialized skill and is widely known and taught (in my day it was taught in highschool). Perhaps aquiring the actual knowledge is harder (couldn’t put it by me though…my teen age son took his drivers test without even the benifit of Drivers ED in HS, which I remember having to take)…but its general knowledge available to the widest number of citizens imaginable (you have to have serious problems, mental of physical or emotion to NOT get a drivers license in the US).

Come on guys…admit it. The question is disingenuous and plays to a certain percentage of our Euro bretherens prejudice about America and American’s, and the ridiculous image of every citizen armed to the teeth with ‘machine guns’ and blasting away at each other constantly. Doesn’t it? You can twist and turn ('what is the definition of ‘easy’? lol, sounds like something a lawyer would say!), you can parse the statement, look at it with one eye closed while standing on your head and spinning quarters, and you can hem and haw…but in the end we all know whats really going on here. If someone made such a ridiculous statement about about something in Europe…say: ‘Is it easier to get drugs in Europe than cough medicine?’ or ‘Is it easier to get kiddy porn in Europe than it is to get comic books?’ (Playing on A) The target audiences prejudices about the subject, and B) The lumping of ‘Europe’ into a single mass, as if they all are exactly the same, with the same laws and outlook everywhere)…then it would be piled on and laughed at around here. I can’t believe ANYONE who is on this board (and therefore, at least in theory, relatively bright and informed) is even taking this seriously enough to TRY and defend the statement…and through such disingenuous means!

If it were REALLY ‘easy’ to buy a machine gun in America tens of millions of American’s would HAVE a machine gun. Tens of millions of us have OTHER guns after all…why wouldn’t we all have a fully automatic AK-47 or one of those nice M2’s with that little .50 cal shell stashed away in the basement? Hell, I would LOVE to have a fully functional automatic weapon myself (maybe a nice, quaint Thompson or a BAR), just to play around with!

-XT

78

This doesn’t happen often, but I gotta agree with my pal xtisme on all points, especially, “Come on guys…admit it. The question is disingenuous and plays to a certain percentage of our Euro bretherens prejudice about America and American’s, and the ridiculous image of every citizen armed to the teeth with ‘machine guns’ and blasting away at each other constantly. Doesn’t it?”

79

[QUOTE=xtisme]
Well, two things. First of all, I think most people would define ‘hard’ as ‘requiring more effort’. I don’t think many people would agree that ‘easy’ in general equals ‘requiring more effort’. Agreed?
[/quote]

Not really. The ‘hard’ level on a computer game generally doesn’t take more effort to beat, it requires a higher skill/ability level. As I said in my previous post hard can refer to either effort or skill level. Quantum Mechanics is hard because it takes a great deal of knowledge and innate ability to comprehend. Moving a pile of bricks is hard because it takes a lot of effort.

[QUOTE=xtisme]

As to it being easier from a knowledge standpoint…well, let me ask you a leading question. Do YOU know how to maintain and operate an automatic weapon? In general, do most people? Because, unless there is corruption involved, your ability to receive one is going to hinge on those skills. Granted, if you HAVE this rather specialized knowledge it may be easier than getting a license for you. In think that it would be a wash for such a person as far as whats easier or whats more difficult.
[/quote]

I don’t think I have to demonstrate operational knowledge of a machine gun to get one. At least not according to the web page I linked to before. Which, to be honest, is pretty surprising. I figured there would at least be a test of gun laws and safe operation of a machine gun.

[QUOTE=xtisme]

Driving however is NOT a specialized skill and is widely known and taught (in my day it was taught in highschool). Perhaps aquiring the actual knowledge is harder (couldn’t put it by me though…my teen age son took his drivers test without even the benifit of Drivers ED in HS, which I remember having to take)…but its general knowledge available to the widest number of citizens imaginable (you have to have serious problems, mental of physical or emotion to NOT get a drivers license in the US).
[/quote]

What specialized knowledge do you need to buy a machine gun? Besides, I think your underestimating the stupidity of your fellow man. I know lots of people that failed the driver’s test multiple times. I don’t have statistics, but I’d wager most people go through a formal driver’s ed course and road instruction before getting their license. Regardless, getting a license requires study, practice, and a demonstration of knowledge and skill. Buying a machine gun apparently is little more than filling out forms.

[QUOTE=xtisme]

Come on guys…admit it. The question is disingenuous and plays to a certain percentage of our Euro bretherens prejudice about America and American’s, and the ridiculous image of every citizen armed to the teeth with ‘machine guns’ and blasting away at each other constantly. Doesn’t it?

You can twist and turn ('what is the definition of ‘easy’? lol, sounds like something a lawyer would say!), you can parse the statement, look at it with one eye closed while standing on your head and spinning quarters, and you can hem and haw…but in the end we all know whats really going on here. If someone made such a ridiculous statement about about something in Europe…say: ‘Is it easier to get drugs in Europe than cough medicine?’ or ‘Is it easier to get kiddy porn in Europe than it is to get comic books?’ (Playing on A) The target audiences prejudices about the subject, and B) The lumping of ‘Europe’ into a single mass, as if they all are exactly the same, with the same laws and outlook everywhere)…then it would be piled on and laughed at around here. I can’t believe ANYONE who is on this board (and therefore, at least in theory, relatively bright and informed) is even taking this seriously enough to TRY and defend the statement…and through such disingenuous means!
[/quote]

Um, ok.

[QUOTE=xtisme]

If it were REALLY ‘easy’ to buy a machine gun in America tens of millions of American’s would HAVE a machine gun. Tens of millions of us have OTHER guns after all…why wouldn’t we all have a fully automatic AK-47 or one of those nice M2’s with that little .50 cal shell stashed away in the basement? Hell, I would LOVE to have a fully functional automatic weapon myself (maybe a nice, quaint Thompson or a BAR), just to play around with!

-XT
[/QUOTE]

Hell I’d love to have a Dodge Viper too. Unfortunately I don’t have the 80 G’s necessary to buy one. That doesn’t make Vipers hard to buy, just expensive.

80

Which increases the difficulty.