Easier to buy a machine gun or get driver's licence in US?

Great Debates
81

[QUOTE=treis]
Quantum Mechanics is hard because it takes a great deal of knowledge and innate ability to comprehend. Moving a pile of bricks is hard because it takes a lot of effort.
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How are they both ‘easy’ then? Or which one is ‘easy’?

[QUOTE=treis]
I don’t think I have to demonstrate operational knowledge of a machine gun to get one.
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I think its implicit in the questioning the local police do that you can actually maintain and operate the weapon. I spoke to my gun dealer friend about this thread (he thought it was funny) and he said that they nearly always ask you questions related to the gun you are trying to aquire to test your knowledge about it. Logically this makes sense to me…you wouldn’t want to give permission to some bozo who doesn’t have a clue how to clean and fire his weapon safely. I only have anecdotal evidence for my part (and its only for his experiences in 2 states), so maybe someone has more info on this. I’d be shocked though if you could get through this process without knowing anything at all about the weapon you are trying to aquire.

[QUOTE=treis]
I figured there would at least be a test of gun laws and safe operation of a machine gun.
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Yeah, me too. As I said, I’ll be shocked if this is the case.

[QUOTE=treis]
What specialized knowledge do you need to buy a machine gun?
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Well, to simply BUY one, you’d need to know all the stuff from this thread. You’d need the procedure IOW, you’d need to know who to contact, where to go, and how to locate someone with a weapon you could legally get under the grandfather clause. In addition, unless I’m wrong, you’d need to demonstrate some proficiency with the weapon, how to maintain and clean the weapon, how to fire the weapon, how to properly safe the weapon.

[QUOTE=treis]
Besides, I think your underestimating the stupidity of your fellow man. I know lots of people that failed the driver’s test multiple times. I don’t have statistics, but I’d wager most people go through a formal driver’s ed course and road instruction before getting their license.
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They probably do fail. But in the end, nearly every American who doesn’t have some serious mental or physical problem gets a license. Even illegal immigrants get driver’s license’s from what I understand. Its a very inclusive system. Contrast that to getting a machine gun…which is a very exclusive system. In general, inclusive systems are easier to enter than exclusive systems. Stats wise this seems born out…more American’s have driver’s license’s than have license’s and tags to own and operate a machine gun in the US. By a very large factor.

[QUOTE=treis]
Buying a machine gun apparently is little more than filling out forms.
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And being screened by your local law enforcement office…in person. Who is going to sit down and talk to you about WHY you need a machine gun…and probably a whole lot of other things. THis part keeps getting skipped for some reason…not sure why. There is quite a bit of paperwork and back and forth processing…and it takes weeks or months to finally process it all. By any definition this process is more complex…which generally means its ‘harder’, simply because its more work. Also, you can arbitrarily be denied your shinny machine gun for several grounds…which means that you did all that bullshit for nothing, and now you are stuck tenderizing coffee cans with a stinky semi-automatic. :frowning:

[QUOTE=treis]
Um, ok.
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Though obviously reluctant, I’m glad you could admit it here. I’m proud of you! :stuck_out_tongue:

[QUOTE=treis]
Hell I’d love to have a Dodge Viper too. Unfortunately I don’t have the 80 G’s necessary to buy one. That doesn’t make Vipers hard to buy, just expensive.
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Does the fact that the car costs more than you can afford make it easy to buy then? If asked on the street, ‘Do you think a Dodge Viper is easy or hard to buy? This lot has 200 Vipers in stock and a new processing and sales program that can fill out all the paperwork, do all the checks and authorize your loans, submit everything necessary to DMV and have you out of the lot in 10 minutes while you relax and drink some fresh coffee while watching TV! All you have to do is be able to pay the price…$80,000’ Would most people say buying a Viper was easy or hard given this? The process to aquire it certainly seems easy…but if you can’t afford the car its out of your reach. So the process doesn’t really matter. The car is hard to get because YOU can’t get it…even if there are hundreds right there in front of you. Or maybe you can, barely, afford the car. Then its hard because the payments are a heavy burden, and you associate with that.

-XT

82

[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist]
Sure it is, all it takes is $30,000 for the gun and a $200 federal tax stamp for each purchase.
Oh, you can’t live in “DE, DC, HI, NY, WA” and be able to pass a basic background check. But that’s it…
Oh, and have a sheriff or police chief willing to sign a form stating that he’s ok with you having it in his jurisdiction.
Fingerprinted of course, but you’re fingerprinted when you get a drivers license.

So, except for the cost and the background check and the federal and local police involvement, the multiple forms, the 90 day wait, and having to go through that for each and every automatic weapon purchased, I suppose some would say that the hardest part of either one is taking the driving test that any stoned 16 year old can and has passed with ease.

Or, what everyone else already said while I was checking numbers.
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Actually, I wasn’t fingerprinted when I got my driver’s license… What state requires that?
Also, I’m certainly a gun nut, and having my very own ‘in’ to the so-called gun culture I can tell you that there are lots and lots of guns out there that LOOK like machine guns and, if you happen to be a moderately competent gunsmith could in some cases be converted to fully-automatic weapons. (I’m looking at YOU, Tec-9!)
Nevertheless, I don’t know anyone at all who owns a machine gun legally.
Buying them is a lengthy process and after you do have it, you have to continually reassure the authorities (officially) that you still have it, aren’t using it for much of anything, and generally still have a reason to have it.

83

Well, a detailed criminal background check, which you don’t need for a car. A special tax that’s far higher than owning a car, which is prohibitive. You need to license it and report any movement over state lines (I can drive my car wherever assuming it’s licensed somewhere).

wikipedia generically lists traffic as a higher rate of death than “violence”, and just below all “intentional injury”

of cars reported as 231 million cite

and 42,643 traffic deaths (cite )

There were approximately 30,000 gun deaths, including suicides cite (pdf)

and 200 million guns (cite)

or ~.0000184 deaths per car
and ~.000015 deaths per gun.
statistically, almost certainly insignificant (but no I didn’t do the statistics to see if it was or not)

84

It is much easier to get a machine gun than a driver’s license. You just have to associate with the right people. I live close to the bad part of my town and there are plenty of gangbangers there who have them. Some of those people I used to hang out with when I was younger. If I called them up tonight I’m sure I could get something within a day or two.

85

[QUOTE=gladtobeblazed]
It is much easier to get a machine gun than a driver’s license. You just have to associate with the right people. I live close to the bad part of my town and there are plenty of gangbangers there who have them. Some of those people I used to hang out with when I was younger. If I called them up tonight I’m sure I could get something within a day or two.
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fully automatic machine guns?
At least a fully auto machine pistol? :dubious:
you may want to alert the authorities about that.

86

[QUOTE=enigm4tic]
fully automatic machine guns?
At least a fully auto machine pistol? :dubious:
you may want to alert the authorities about that.
[/QUOTE]

Not sure what type of guns they have, I haven’t hung out with any of those guys since I stopped selling pot 5 years ago but I know they have them. My close friend has an AK-47 as does his father and brother. I believe they are fully automatic, but I’m not sure. They aren’t gangbangers though, just rednecks who own a cattle ranch :wink:

Getting guns is kind of like getting large quantities of drugs, it just takes connections and money. Just like everything else in life, once you have those it’s a piece of cake.

87

[QUOTE=enigm4tic]
Well, a detailed criminal background check, which you don’t need for a car. A special tax that’s far higher than owning a car, which is prohibitive. You need to license it and report any movement over state lines (I can drive my car wherever assuming it’s licensed somewhere.
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A detailed criminal background check - True, but most people are not convicted criminals. I’d fly through that test.
A special tax - So what, you just pay the money. No “test” there.
Liscence and report movement - same as a drivers liscence, the second part is irrelevant to getting the gun in the first place.

I don’t know why people can’t just admit it - it ain’t that hard to get an automatic weapon.

88

[QUOTE=Lamar Mundane]
A detailed criminal background check - True, but most people are not convicted criminals. I’d fly through that test.
A special tax - So what, you just pay the money. No “test” there.
Liscence and report movement - same as a drivers liscence, the second part is irrelevant to getting the gun in the first place.
[/QUOTE]

Getting your local police agency to sign off on it? Or did you forget that part?

[QUOTE=Lamar Mundane]
I don’t know why people can’t just admit it - it ain’t that hard to get an automatic weapon.
[/QUOTE]

Tell you what…YOU try and go get one, then get back to us, ehe? :stuck_out_tongue:

-XT

89

This Saturday, I wanted to arrainge with a local sporting goods store to receive a rifle (not a machine gun) to be purchased via the inter web. While I was in the store waiting to talk to Charlie (the owner) I realized my wallet was not in my pocket. Turns out that I had lost it Friday night.

So I am in a position to compare the process of buying a NORMAL (not a machine gun, which is harder) gun, with that of obtaining a driver’s license.

Documentation:

There was no way in hell for me to conduct the gun transaction without my driver’s license. However, I was able this morning, to obtain a replacement drivers license using my (expired) passport and birth certificate. Thus ALL the documentation burden for a DL is shared by the firearm purchase, because you can’t do the second without having done the first.

Time:

I had to wait a little over a half an hour while Charlie did the paperwork and background on ONE sale (a shotgun). The motor vehicle office wasn’t too busy this AM, and I was only 5th in line, and there was only one worker at this office. So it took about 20-25 minutes to get my driver’s license replaced. Granted, Charlie is a bit long in the tooth, and no speed demon, but remember we are comparing him to an MVD employee. So 5 minutes/transaction vs ~30.

Cost:
The fee for my driver’s license was $34. The fee for a class 5 (?? never done it) transfer needed to purchase a machine gun is $500. Since I gave him first shot at the sale Charlie is only going to charge me $35 instead of his usual $50 for this non-automatic gun transfer. (he couldn’t find this particular gun through his sources).

Now, assuming you already have the drivers license, it may well be less additional burden to purchase an fully automatic weapon, but that is really stretching the semantics. Basically, the claim is pure hokum.

[QUOTE=gladtobeblazed]
It is much easier to get a machine gun than a driver’s license. You just have to associate with the right people. I live close to the bad part of my town and there are plenty of gangbangers there who have them.
[/QUOTE]

First off, I assume the the claim in the OP is related to an argument for changing the process for legal aquisition of automatic weapons, so the ease or not, of illeagle purchase is neither here, nor there, as far as this debate. But assuming it did matter, wouldn’t it be cheaper, and even less delay and hassle to get a “driver’s license” through similar subculture connections? Not to mention that it took me 25 minutes and $34 to get a genuine DL. If you claim is true, it takes a couple of days, and how much dosh to illeagly buy the MG?

90

[QUOTE=gladtobeblazed]
It is much easier to get a machine gun than a driver’s license. You just have to associate with the right people. I live close to the bad part of my town and there are plenty of gangbangers there who have them. Some of those people I used to hang out with when I was younger. If I called them up tonight I’m sure I could get something within a day or two.
[/QUOTE]

I am almost certain that you have never seen a gang banger with a real machine gun. If you indeed have seen someone besides a cop or soldier with an automatic weapon of any kind it is almost certainly a home made “conversion kit” that most likely made the weapon much less effective for killing things.

Most cool looking evil movie guns can be had in semi-automatic quite easily, including, Kalashnikovs, Uzis, AR-15s, MACs, etc. Furthermore, an actual, real, live machine gun, even a black market item, would be pretty valuable just because of scarcity. I don’t see the local dope-man dropping 5 to 10K on a full auto when a perfectly lethal and nasty looking semi-auto Kalashnikov can be had for a couple of hundred bucks.

I’m also pretty sure it’s a guaranteed 10 years in the federal pen if you get caught which a full-auto, which should be enough to discourage somebody moving a few ounces of grass.

I readily admit that there are some illegal machine guns in the United States, and some drug dealers probably do own them. However, I think it’s a myth that every crack dealer in LA has an Uzi.

91

[QUOTE=Guy Anonymous]
Actually, I wasn’t fingerprinted when I got my driver’s license… What state requires that?
[/QUOTE]
Colorado. I don’t remember when it started, it may be only right index, and it’s electronic now instead of ink, but yes. Much simpler process than what’s required for a CCW or Class III (full set done by police).

To make the analogy more accurate you’d have to pick out a vehicle before you get your drivers license and go through the whole process each time you want a different one. Imagine having to get federal documentation and the personal OK of your local police chief to buy or sell a car. Is it easier to buy a car or a machine gun is a more logical comparison, but since I didn’t write the article I guess I don’t get to choose.

Come to think of it, as far as I know no one who has ever bought a car/truck/motorcycle from me has been properly licensed to operate that vehicle on public roads.

92

[QUOTE=Lamar Mundane]
A detailed criminal background check - True, but most people are not convicted criminals. I’d fly through that test.
A special tax - So what, you just pay the money. No “test” there.
Liscence and report movement - same as a drivers liscence, the second part is irrelevant to getting the gun in the first place.

I don’t know why people can’t just admit it - it ain’t that hard to get an automatic weapon.
[/QUOTE]

technically, we’re debating whether or not it’s harder to get one than the other, not whether either one is “easy” or “possible”.

Firstly, I’d say the paperwork for the machine gun is clearly more difficult to obtain than the license. Sure, most people would “fly right through” a background check, but some people won’t who can still drive, thus, it’s “harder” to get the gun.

Secondly, owning a car entails a standard property tax, and a car is one of the basic necessities of life, in fact, in many settings in the US its nigh-impossible to get by without one, thus the resources of getting a car contribute to resources such as wage-earning jobs, purchasing food and other goods, etc.: a car enables further economic transactions.

A machine gun, on the other hand, requires a dedicated effort and extra set of assets that not a lot of people can afford: given any of the several thousand K plus purchase prices for an item that is essentially a sunk cost (unlike the car, as noted above) is not something a lot of people can put in to a budget. Secondly, the renewal/activation fees and taxes are an additional burden that a large portion of middle to low class America couldn’t afford without an intentional dedicated effort. Almost all of these same people own a car.
again, both are feasible, but the necessity of the car and the return advantages it brings (being able to drive to a paying job, time-saving in purchasing basic necessities) mitigates its cost, whereas a gun is purely extraneous, and thus more “difficult” to afford.

Third: the point about the registration and licensing of the gun is not entirely irrelevant. The purchase and subsequent ability to keep the gun is entirely relevant to the difficulty in planning to get one: can I afford the extra time to get the licensing paperwork (in some districts including a personal waiver by the local sheriff)? Can I afford the time and effort to register any time I move said gun over state lines? The future planning phase definitely affects the ability to purchase.
All that it is easier to purchase a car based on licensing, restrictions, long-term cost, and time.

93

[QUOTE=Lamar Mundane]

I don’t know why people can’t just admit it - it ain’t that hard to get an automatic weapon.
[/QUOTE]

Sure it isn’t, when you leave out the hard steps.

A) Finding the right weapon and a person willing to transfer it.

Because of the extremely limited market, this part is difficult. There may be no transferrable guns of the type you want, and never will be. And there’s a limited market for whatever it is you do want - you have to find someone to sell it to you. And when you do, it’s going to be absurdly expensive.

B) Finding a dealer to assist and dealing with all the paperwork

You have to find a dealer with the right qualifications who’s willing to work with you on the months-long pain in the ass process with lots of paperwork during the process. I’m not sure exactly how much paperwork is, but I know it’s a pain in the ass, and the whole process takes months.

C) Getting your chief law enforcement officer to sign off on it.

There’s no due process on this one. Your CLO might not ever sign off on this for any reason. Then you’re screwed. No matter what your qualifications or dedication. Can you imagine living in a state where the DMV decided they just didn’t like the idea of you driving a car?

He might be a total hardass who grills you all day about it, forces you to prove whatever he wants.

Less likely, he’s just going to sign off on it automatically. This seems to be the assumption of everyone here using willfull ignorance to try to defend an absurd stereotype.

D) Something no one has mentioned, but as far as I know, is true. You have to make the ATF aware of any out of state movements (with or without the weapon, I believe) - but more importantly, you grant the ATF the right to inspect your house (not just your weapon) anytime they wish. The ATF is not known for their respect for civil rights, private property, and for that matter, life. They have a tendency to throw acid on the face of old nuns, stomp kittens, and punch infants in the face. Having a full auto weapon is essentially an open license to let the ATF fuck with you several times a year.

Someone says something that was either a mistranslation, or a wild, dishonest, stereotype, and you guys are all over this being willfully ignorant to try to support it.

Getting a driver’s license is easy - it’s a very easy test that’s administered to everyone with due process that allows anyone qualified to do it without punitive costs (the $200 fee on the transfer hasn’t changed since 1934, back then it was an attempt to put a $200 tax on a $10 gun to discourage ownership and keep it limited to the rich - nowadays, the artificially fixed supply makes the guns cost generally more than 10 times their actual worth), without having to give up any freedoms, without being subject to the arbitrary decisions of someone in charge over the process. It’s not even in the same ballpark. I’m a gun enthusiast and would definitely own a full auto weapon if it were easy. It is not. It would be extremely difficult and expensive. Of course I have a driver’s license - that was quite easy.