If you don’t understand the connections from blues to country and back again, then you understand very little. Of course black people are integral to Southern culture and have been since Jamestown. Their influence runs all through our shared culture, from music to food to industry to religion to the African influence on the dialect. They are a part of Southern culture, not apart from it.
I agree; war was a terrible, unnecessary way to end slavery. (IIRC, every other Western country with slavery ended it without war, apart from the Haitian insurrection, which you can’t fault.)
And therefore the best symbol to recognise that shared culture is the battle flag of the group that wanted to own their ancestors?
If you want a symbol to represent that shared culture, shouldn’t it be something that isn’t so racially charged and divisive?
ETA : responding to Spoke’s post 161.
I tried to explain this upthread. The generation of folks who grew up in the 70s grew up thinking of the flag as an innocuous symbol of Southern pride and rebelliousness, and they have a hard time letting go of that understanding.
But if you think they aren’t getting the message about the flag’s offensiveness, you are wrong. It’s just that some absorb and accept the message more slowly than others. I again point to the fact that conservative Republican politicians are bringing down the flag. That would not have happened even five years ago.
But aside from that fact, the flag hasn’t been a big thing down here for decades. It was everywhere in the 70s, but you hardly see it any more. Most folks lowered it or removed it long ago from their own property because they don’t want to give offense or don’t want to be perceived as racist. It is really kind of jarring to see one these days because they have become unusual items. You tend to do a double-take at the sight of one. (I get the impression our northern cousins think there’s a Confederate flag decal on every bumper down here.)
If you’ve seen the Dukes of Hazzard movie (I haven’t, but I know this from the previews) they have some fun with the altered perception of the flag in these parts. The boys drive the Confederate-flag-bearing General Lee on the interstate and are met with catcalls, derision, and double-takes.
But yeah, there are a few holdouts who don’t get that the zeitgeist has changed. They are not all malevolent people. Just maybe some combination of ignorant, stubborn, and nostalgic. And yes, then there are the racists who consciously display the flags for racist reasons. No reaching them, of course, but there are still some good people who remain to be persuaded.
Bans are not the way to do it, in my opinion. Those are only going to cause a defensive reaction and a backlash. Gentle shaming works better, I have found.
It was fun, because it was accurate. You ascribe the SOLE reason for secession to slavery, then argue that makes the South worse than the U.S. Where am I getting your argument wrong? Please correct me.
I don’t care about secession, I also don’t care about Shay’s rebellion, but I think slavery was an atrocity. Slavery was an American institution, not a southern one.
How do you suggest that we gently shame people? I think one good method would be to let them know that they can’t use the mainstream sales websites, such as Amazon and eBay, to purchase offensive items. We haven’t banned the flag (i.e. made it illegal), we’re just saying, “Look, if you want to display a Confederate flag, go ahead, that’s your right. But you’re not purchasing it from this site, because we find it offensive.” See, gentle shaming.
No, I was specifically responding to the argument that numbers and repeated complaints should result in action. The argument I was responding to made no mention of why the flag is offensive.
I didn’t say the South is worse than the US. I said the confederate battle flag is worse than the US flag. This is a subtle difference.
Works better coming from inside the culture than from outside. It’s happening, if y’all would relax and let it, rather than trying to force-feed it.
Once again, your argument only remotely addresses what you’re responding to. No, the post you’re responding to didn’t repeat yet again the reasons why folks find the confederate flag offensive; it assumes that you’ve read the thread.
In the abstract, I would agree with you. Most confederate statutes and site names are probably not offending anyone. The problem is not the left; it’s the people (largely) on the right who are saying “hey, how come everyone is whining about South Carolina but ignoring Georgia and their actual confederate state flag, huh?” If “The Left” ignores some confederate monuments and complains about others, the opposing side calls them hypocrites.
Yes, this is very dumb. But whatever, I’m an Android user.
[QUOTE=Spoke]
But aside from that fact, the flag hasn’t been a big thing down here for decades. It was everywhere in the 70s, but you hardly see it any more. Most folks lowered it or removed it long ago from their own property because they don’t want to give offense or don’t want to be perceived as racist. It is really kind of jarring to see one these days because they have become unusual items. You tend to do a double-take at the sight of one. (I get the impression our northern cousins think there’s a Confederate flag decal on every bumper down here.)
[/QUOTE]
This may be an eye of the beholder thing. When I was in Kentucky a few years ago, I was struck by how often I saw the flag. Coming from Canada, it seemed to me to be very commonly displayed. Maybe the display has gone down, but it was still noticeable to me.
I see it quite frequently here in Central Florida, even though we only have pockets of The South here. Probably at least once a day.
As for you, have you read “Letter from a Birmingham Jail”?
Some passages from it echo the arguments here:
The calls for gentle action, for letting things resolve naturally, are the same sorts of calls folks made to MLK, and that he rejected so strenuously. They’re the same calls folks made to those arguing for same-sex marriage. And they’re just as misguided this time.
Putting hard pressure on the pro-confederate flag brigade is exactly the right thing to do, especially at this moment. Claims that they’ll just dig in their heels, and that pressure is counterproductive, are not borne out by the history of civil rights work.
No, but various polling organizationsdid. As of June 22, 64% of Americans disapprove of the flag, which certainly qualifies as millions.
Maybe this is a novel concept for you, but I try to live my life by not offending people. That includes not engaging in everyday rudeness to people, and it also includes not displaying symbols that offend people when those symbols have no other purpose, and there are plenty of better ways to make my point. As I said, if you are proud of being Southern, wear a T-shirt that says so. If you like Southern music, use the logo of your favorite band. If you like Southern food, share that love with others. But don’t fly the Confederate flag unless you want people to think that you’re supporting the ideals of the Confederacy.
I don’t think what eBay and Amazon are doing is gentle shaming. It is disingenuous publicity-grabbing.
The General Lee is banned, but this item remains? Yes, thank you for your moral leadership, Amazon.
For pity’s sake. Across the bottom of the screen, under “People who bought this item also bought,” there’s a Confederate Flag. What does this suggest to you? For someone defending others from being jumped on, maybe you shouldn’t be so quick to jump on others.
Ok, so please elaborate. What happened under the Confederate flag that DIDN’T happen under the U.S. one (and for far longer)? Slavery? Racism? White supremacy? Secession? Black codes? Jim Crow? Segregation?
To declare one flag to be the flag of slavery, racism, and hate and the other to be innocuous requires some pretty staunch hypocrisy. Unless, of course, blacks really were treated worse in the Confederacy than in the Union, an argument I would just LOVE someone to make.
tap tap–is this thing on?
Does someone else want to try explaining?
Grotonian, your question shows that you still have no idea what I’m saying.
You cannot possibly be dense enough to seriously ascribe Jim Crow to the US flag in the context of a debate about the confederate flag.