If he put it in a demeaning manner like that, I imagine he would be.
Yeah, and why can’t all those Mexicans speak regular English instead of that kooky slang they use? Leave all that “los pantalones del pulpo tienen ocho piernas” trash outside the schoolhouse doors, mister! :rolleyes:
If you are truly ignorant of the difference between a dialect and street slang, you really need to go back and read at least the first thread to which I linked, above, to avoid making yourself look very, very foolish. That thread includes the declaration by linguists that
…
Isn’t this obvious? In real life, I interact with a lot of black folks. I’ve yet to encounter any black people who couldn’t understand what I speak. And in spoken language I ordinarily say things like “ain’t gonna” and such. Since when has English been so narrow it doesn’t allow picking up regional jargon? Even all the other honkies I know have no problem understanding such jargon. I actually like the fluidity of English.
I am absolutely amazed and disheartened by most of the responses in this thread.
First, I think the article, as poorly written as it may be, clearly states that the kids are going to be taught in ebonics. And the educated, intelligent members of SD think this is a good idea?
There is already a racial gap in education. There is a cultural gap, as well, which often works to reinforce the educational one. Making subjects relevant is a good idea, and that is what good teachers do. But to legitamize ebonics further just makes standard English appear to be LESS of a necessity. And that is the exact wrong message to send these kids.
Fact is, many of these children come from broken homes. In some school districts the incidence of single-parent households is 99%! These are the kids that need to be told great things are expected of them. When the bar is low and you miss it, you wind up dead or in jail. When we keep it high, if you miss becomiing a doctor or lawyer you’re likely to still end up being a happy, productive member of society.
This feel-good idea is throwing in the towel. Yes, different things need to be done, but lets look to what has worked in the past. Similar to one poster, my four grandparents came from Europe. One grandfather had $5, the other $15. They all lived in tenaments in Harlem. No heat. Bathroom in the hall. Yet, they and millions of other immigrants of their time and ours has managed to master the language. We should expect nothing less of these kids in San Bernardino. Doing so implies that they are less.
Look at some of the charter schools that have been successful. They are in similarly disadvantaged areas, yet when the kids are told that GREAT THINGS are expected from them (something many of them have never heard), they succeed. Not just by being proficient in the language and staying out of jail. No, but by going to college at a rate equal to some private schools. Even to Ivy League schools.
Just as Picasso mastered drawing before he turned to cubism, Langston Hughes made it into Columbia University. Hurston attended Barnard. Morrison got a Masters at Cornell.
To imply to be able to write they way they did one can skip the mastery part is disgusting. I love Lagston Hughes. Teach him. But be honest and teach the road he had to take to be able to do it.
We should not embrace ebonics in any way. To romanticize it with this rich southern and African heritage is nonsense. Naturally, in the south there were educated and uneducated African-Americans. The uneducated ones’ speech patterns may have resembled the current dialect of the children in question, but it was not a source of pride. I had an African-Amercan teacher from the south. He was the most proper, buttoned up teacher I had. He did have a temper, and it was usually reserved for th black kids in the class that tried to act cool (shunning school, being lazy) and try to sidle up to him as a brother. No one made that mistake twice.
And how about those Africans who emmigrate here today. Do you see them so enamored of the beautiful speech patterns of their native tongues that they can’t or don’t want to master English?
I’m very sad. Embracing this nonsense is like teaching a kid that there’s a proper way to keep a sloppy room, or an okay way to be rude. We’ve lost enough generations of African-Americans, whose lack of education is often a one-way ticket to a world filled with dead-ends. We need to give them the tools to do great things. Let’s not write off more just so some frustrated, incompetent administrators can feel good about themselves when Jamal gets an A in ebonics.
Word.
You know, you’re lucky that you’re so clearly ignorant about linguistics - it’s the only thing keeping you from looking like a racist. (You’re sorta pushing it.) Like just about everybody else here, I don’t deny that black kids in these schools need to learn how other people speak to get along in the world, and that’s important. But it’d help you a lot if you had the first clue what you were talking about.
Get this, please: there is no right and wrong in English. No objective standard. There is no right and wrong way to speak a language provided you are able to communicate with others. AAVE/Ebonics users can communicate with each other, ergo, it’s a dialect, not gibberish or “talking wrong.” Ebonics does not indicate a lack of education any more than speaking Spanish, French or Spanglish does. It might indicate a lack of exposure to other forms of English. And it certainly gives excuses for people like you to yammer on about how uneducated they are.
It’s nothing of the sort, although at this point I’m asking myself “why bother?” since you are either incapable of understanding this, or just refusing to let it get in the way of a good rant.
Stephe96, all of this goes for you too. You are not speaking “correct English,” you’re just speaking the variety you’re used to. You and I are intelligible to most English speakers, but not all. Doesn’t make us right and them wrong, or vice versa. Is Mandarin Chinese “right,” or is Cantonese?
Would you mind quoting the part where you think it “clearly states” that?
Gladly.
"…For many of these students Ebonics is their language, and it should be considered a foreign language. These students should be taught like other students who speak a foreign language.’
Texeira said research has shown that students learn better when they fully comprehend the language they are being taught in."
Marley23
What version of English would you suggest a non-English speaker learn?
Why is this objectionable? Other ESL students are taught partly in their own languages. If you have a kid who speaks only Chinese come to an English-language school, he’s not going to learn English just because he’s surrouded by English speakers. He’s also going to need instruction in the language he understands. This seems like common sense to me.
What makes you think this means courses will be taught in Ebonics? Aren’t students who speak foreign languages first taught English, then taught all their other classes in English?
Do you think “the language they are being taught in” refers to something other than English, and if so, why?
"…For many of these students Ebonics is their language, and it should be considered a foreign language. These students should be taught like other students who speak a foreign language.’
Texeira said research has shown that students learn better when they fully comprehend the language they are being taught in."
I agree with this.
I don’t know about anyone else, but I sure would’ve understood Hamlet and Dante’s Inferno a LOT more had they been translated into, say, mall-speak or something. But I don’t think it’s the right idea. The point of teaching these classics is to understand the ‘language’ they were written in. I wasn’t allowed to say, “Shakespeare wrote funny and I don’t think I should have to learn this until it’s something I can understand.” Well, I guess I was allowed to say it…but you understand.
Does that mean I should have received 100s on all those English tests I took over the years? Hey, wait a minute, we all should have!
You’re talking nonsense. It’s the same kind of nonsense that has caused our schools to go down the toilet. “5 x 3 = 28.” “That’s good Johnny, that a good answer. But let’s see if someone else has another answer.”
And I do not profess to be a linguist. Just someone that has some common sense. And rather than throw around your “racist” labels, why don’t you address the points in the post? Tell me why you think the POSITIONS I’ve taken are faulty. Surely you most know that people lesser than you might misplace terms like slang and dialect. But wait, THERE IS NO WRONG. Or is it that your lingual abilities are so above mere mortals that you’re afraid I wouldn’t understand you, so why bother? Well that would be as convenient for you as it would be pleasurable for me.
So Mr. Chomsky, let’s see how good you are. I’m think of two words that often go together. They both begin with “A”. The first one is “Arrogant”, can you figure out the second one?
“Askia?”
FisherQueen, I liked your initial post. You seem to be a public servant who truly does what you do for the love of those you serve. Your kindness shows.
Whenever I see posts about minority or immigrant groups, and the inevitable declamations that follow about how they damn well ought to assimilate, I recall two quotes.
This one is from a letter:
This one is from the Chicago Evening Post:
The letter was written by Benjamin Franklin, the newspaper editorial is from an anonymous author in 1868.
Every immigrant wave the US has seen has engendered these kind of concerns about assimilation, each of which has come to nothing in the long run. I am wondering what you think about African Americans and their apparent inability to assimilate. Has it not been long enough? (is counting from the Civil Rights movement of the 1960’s appropriate?) Is the color of skin the deal breaker? Drugs in the ghettos? War on drugs and the concomitant inequities of incarceration? Culture of fatherlessness? Inability to get beyond slavery persecution complex? Bell-curve type arguments? Language?
Drop out rates, incarceration statistics, business involvement numbers–all show a persistent problem. I know language cannot be the primary factor, as it never has been in our past. Do you as a teacher have a notion you might share?
I rejoice that our current immigration wave (hispanics) are family oriented, Christian (no religious antagonism, as they are seeing in Europe), and possess a strong work ethic.
But I continue to be perplexed by the lack of advancement for African Americans. Here in Illinois there are even political Blacks who suggest that our Barak Obama is not a legitimate candidate because his father was a voluntary immigrant from Kenya, and not a slave ship passenger.
I realize this posts sounds racist, and perhaps it is–perhaps I sound like Ben Franklin above, but I am curious if you have any insight, FisherQueen
Do you seriously not understand the difference between “when they fully comprehend the language they are being taught in”, which is what the article actually says, and “when they are taught in a language they already comprehend”, which is what your attempt at humor is based around?
According to my friend wh has been an ESL teacher for over 25 years, no. When students are newly arrived, she teaches them all the subjects in their native tongue, peppering it with a little English as time progresses. They also have specific classes in which she teaches them standard English. As she explained it to me, the thinking is that you can’t expect a kid to understand what is going on in an English-speaking science class if he doesn’t know the language. And if you wait until they have a proficiency in English, then they’ve lost a lot of time and will have a hard time later trying to catch up to the science proficiency of their age group.
Of course, I use science as just an example.
Where does the article suggest anything that even APPROACHES that? I don’t think you’d ever see an un-annotated version of one of those stories in a high school, so you’re splitting hairs there in any case.
Did your teachers just throw an untranslated copy of The Inferno on your desk without teaching you Italian?
Where’s he live?
It sure doesn’t. I said there’s no objective standard by which Ebonics is wrong and there is some “standard” “correct” variety of English. I’m talking about linguistics, not high school tests designed to check your knowledge of minutiae of whatever version of English you grew up speaking. Not the same playing field. That said, from the linguistics/science standpoint, as far as I know, if other people can understand what you’re saying, you’re good.
Oh good. This thread would’ve been incomplete without a cliche attack on liberalism. Let’s move on.
But you DO profess to be someone who knows what he’s talking about. The problem is you don’t have a clue. See what I’m getting at?
I did address them, and I didn’t call you a racist. I said pretty clearly that IF you hadn’t made all your misunderstandings so plain, you would come off as a racist.
Seems like most of the posters here agree with me, and I’m willing to bet some of them know much more about linguistics than I do. All I know is what I learned in one or two college linguistics class and from conversations with friends who took others. I didn’t say you were incapable of understanding me because I’m a genius, I said it because you’ve made it clear thusfar that you don’t want to listen, as evidenced by your response to others. I said that pretty clearly, too, so I don’t know why you’re trying this overblown style of response.
Ooh, cute.
Marley23
On a bayou in Louisiana.