Ebonics: a bad idea becomes a horrible reality

[Marley23]

@Stephe96

I don’t know about anyone else, but I sure would’ve understood Hamlet and Dante’s Inferno a LOT more had they been translated into, say, mall-speak or something. But I don’t think it’s the right idea.

Where does the article suggest anything that even APPROACHES that? I don’t think you’d ever see an un-annotated version of one of those stories in a high school, so you’re splitting hairs there in any case.

I wasn’t allowed to say, “Shakespeare wrote funny and I don’t think I should have to learn this until it’s something I can understand.”

Did your teachers just throw an untranslated copy of The Inferno on your desk without teaching you Italian?

@jimpatro

What version of English would you suggest a non-English speaker learn?

Where’s he live?

@magellan01

Does that mean I should have received 100s on all those English tests I took over the years?

It sure doesn’t. I said there’s no objective standard by which Ebonics is wrong and there is some “standard” “correct” variety of English. I’m talking about linguistics, not high school tests designed to check your knowledge of minutiae of whatever version of English you grew up speaking. Not the same playing field. That said, from the linguistics/science standpoint, as far as I know, if other people can understand what you’re saying, you’re good.

… “5 x 3 = 28.” “That’s good Johnny, that a good answer. But let’s see if someone else has another answer.”

Oh good. This thread would’ve been incomplete without a cliche attack on liberalism. Let’s move on.

And I do not profess to be a linguist.

But you DO profess to be someone who knows what he’s talking about. The problem is you don’t have a clue. See what I’m getting at?

And rather than throw around your “racist” labels, why don’t you address the points in the post? Tell me why you think the POSITIONS I’ve taken are faulty.

I did address them, and I didn’t call you a racist. I said pretty clearly that IF you hadn’t made all your misunderstandings so plain, you would come off as a racist.

Or is it that your lingual abilities are so above mere mortals that you’re afraid I wouldn’t understand you, so why bother? Well that would be as convenient for you as it would be pleasurable for me.

Seems like most of the posters here agree with me, and I’m willing to bet some of them know much more about linguistics than I do. All I know is what I learned in one or two college linguistics class and from conversations with friends who took others. I didn’t say you were incapable of understanding me because I’m a genius, I said it because you’ve made it clear thusfar that you don’t want to listen, as evidenced by your response to others. I said that pretty clearly, too, so I don’t know why you’re trying this overblown style of response.

I’m think of two words that often go together. They both begin with “A”. The first one is “Arrogant”, can you figure out the second one?

Ooh, cute.

[Marley23]

Oh, freaking thing with the error message… anyway

@jimpatro

Marley23

On a bayou in Louisiana.

What I’m trying to get at is that it’s just common sense that you learn a variety of English that allows you to communicate with the people you need to talk to.

[jimpatro]

Marley23

I’m talking about linguistics, not high school tests designed to check your knowledge of minutiae of whatever version of English you grew up speaking.

Nope, from coast to coast, we were all taught the same version of English. Now whether we soaked it up or not is another thing. Same for Calculus or Physics et al. Language can be so rooted in culture that it can be quite a bugaboo as illustrated in this thread.

[jimpatro]

Marley23

What I’m trying to get at is that it’s just common sense that you learn a variety of English that allows you to communicate with the people you need to talk to.

I know you are.

Is there a fairly extensive curriculum for teaching say, Cajun English?

[Askia]

Dio2112. I’m not sure what you mean by “slavery persecution complex” but I will note that generational poverty is one of the most insidious situations to extricate oneself and one’s family from. Even the support systems available to women in tend to keep one in, at best, working class opportunities for advancement. The socioeconomic mentality that results in most (if not all) family members that grow up in such poverty intensely resists having what might be called a “strong work ethic” or “placing a high value on education” – but it’s a classist bigotry: it has no inherent skin color. Nor should it be assumed to be an inbred characteristic of American blacks. Any ‘lack of progress’ to assimilate is borne as much in a deep set unwillingness among many African-Americans to change as it is inability to make social progress, from pressures both within the culture and without.

[Marley23]

@jimpatro

Nope, from coast to coast, we were all taught the same version of English.

If you’re harping on my use of the word “speaking” in the other post, you’re actually right. We’re probably taught pretty much the same form of written English. People who speak Jamaican Patois (just to pick an example) use pretty much the same kind of written English. But they don’t speak it like we do, and not all Americans do either.

So where, if anyplace, is this going?

[jimpatro]

Well, what I’m getting at is that there needs to be a central common starting point(American Standard English?) We should all have that in common, then I have no objection to regional or cultural dialects. I’ve never encountered anyone who didn’t understand my version of English, regardless of what their particular group might have been. But I’d bet there are groups speaking English dialects who wouldn’t understand each other.

[Zoe]

bizzwire: Let’s focus on what we have in common, first.

What we all have in common is that all who speak English speak in one dialect or another. That includes the “locals” in Louisiana, California, and Massachusetts. There are some generally agreed upon rules for written English, but even those create debate from time to time. There is no standard dialect for English.

jimpatro: What version of English would you suggest a non-English speaker learn?

The version of English which is spoken in the environment surrounding that person is the version she or he will learn. That may be a combination of friends, teachers, co-workers, television, tapes, family, etc. Teachers can help the non-English speaker polish her or his skills.

magellan01: And I do not profess to be a linguist. Just someone that has some common sense.

But you know that language is not a matter of common sense. Judging from your reactions to the article and the concerns you have expressed, you misunderstand what ebonics is. The goal will be to improve language skills, not to toss requirements out the window and lower standards.

I don’t consider myself a linguist either, although I have studied linguistics along the way. I did teach language arts for twenty years.

[Marley23]

@jimpatro

Well, what I’m getting at is that there needs to be a central common starting point(American Standard English?)

What purpose does it serve to invent one?

I’ve never encountered anyone who didn’t understand my version of English, regardless of what their particular group might have been. But I’d bet there are groups speaking English dialects who wouldn’t understand each other.

In America, I haven’t either. I’m sure there are dialects I wouldn’t understand, and I’m sure there are varieties in the UK - just going with what comes to mind - that would be trouble.

[Askia]

(Jumping in uninvited) We have standard WRITTEN American English. Are you advocating a single “standard” American oral inflection?

I’d argue one exists de facto now, and it’s essentially the dialect used in pop music and media broadcasting.

[magellan01]

@Marley23

I said there’s no objective standard by which Ebonics is wrong and there is some “standard” “correct” variety of English.

Well, here’s a quote from you:

“Get this, please: there is no right and wrong in English. No objective standard. There is no right and wrong way to speak a language provided you are able to communicate with others.”

The problem is you don’t have a clue. See what I’m getting at?

No, I wish you would explain.

…and I didn’t call you a racist.

I didn’t say you did. I said:

“And rather than throw around your “racist” labels…”

Seems like most of the posters here agree with me,…

Please tell me you know that this is, at best, a weak argument.

I didn’t say you were incapable of understanding me because I’m a genius, I said it because you’ve made it clear thusfar that you don’t want to listen, as evidenced by your response to others.

What? So, how have I made it clear that I “don’t want to listen”? I come home, read through the thread, digest it all, and write what I think. Was I suposed to just step in line and parrot what your precious majority was saying. If you haven’t noticed, it’s called Great Debate, not Great Consensus. And up until that post you’re commenting on, the only “response” I had given was post #3, to get it back on track. The long post you read was not a response to anyone specific. It was in response to the tenor of the thread.

I said that pretty clearly, too, so I don’t know why you’re trying this overblown style of response.

I suggest you reread your post. Then compare it to your post asking me about ESL. I think you’ll notice a difference.

Which leads us to:

@Marley23

Why is this objectionable? Other ESL students are taught partly in their own languages. If you have a kid who speaks only Chinese come to an English-language school, he’s not going to learn English just because he’s surrouded by English speakers. He’s also going to need instruction in the language he understands. This seems like common sense to me.

First, thank you for your change in tone. I apologize if you think I over reacted in my last reply.

To your question: I simply do not see how you can equate someone who comes here from, say, China with someone who enters the school from a bad neighborhood in, say, San Bernardino. The person from China had little or no exposure to English. The kid from San Bernardino has lived in the society. He can navigate street signs, read packaing labels, read the directions for his iPod, etc. He is surrounded by television, magazines, newspapers and billboards. He knows 90% of it. He rejects a lot of it because it is not cool. Where a Chinese kid is trying to adopt the language and have it replace his own in order to take advantage of what the country offers , the African-American kid turns his back on it and the opportunities it wold afford him. We need to bring him into the fold, not legitamize–whatever you prefer to call it. This just allows him to live an even more insular existence.

The problems are two different ones. Treating the same will not help the kid in San Bernardino.

[jimpatro]

Marley23

What purpose does it serve to invent one?

Only the label. Written English already exists. As you’ve agreed, it’s what we’re already all taught. I speak just as I was taught to write and so do many people.

[Askia]

magellan01. I don’t think the hypothetical black kid in your example would appreciate the condescension of being ordered to come into the fold and when you’re not even willing to legitimize his native dialect if he can navigate his world using the patios he grew up using all his life with 90% accuracy, nahwhatImsayin? Whatchoo thank he is, some kind of bitch or some? What he need to go do that extra 10% fo’? You feelin’ me?

[magellan01]

@Zoe

But you know that language is not a matter of common sense. Judging from your reactions to the article and the concerns you have expressed, you misunderstand what ebonics is. The goal will be to improve language skills, not to toss requirements out the window and lower standards.

Yes, I understand that. I was just offering common sense as a credential, since I do not have the Linguistics degree I felt I was being slighted for. Evidently, I misinterpreted being attacked for this deficiency.

I may very well misunderstand what ebonics is. But I think it matters little, because I think I understand what it is NOT. It is not the language that is going to get you through the interview for a good-paying job with a bright future.

[jimpatro]

magellan01

The kid from San Bernardino has lived in the society. He can navigate street signs, read packaing labels, read the directions for his iPod, etc. He is surrounded by television, magazines, newspapers and billboards. He knows 90% of it. He rejects a lot of it because it is not cool.

BINGO!

[jimpatro]

nahwhatImsayin? Whatchoo thank he is, some kind of bitch or some? What he need to go do that extra 10% fo’? You feelin’ me?

Now who that is not a “hypothetical black kid” doesn’t understand this?
Is it really that different?

[Zoe]

jimpatro, I saw your question about Cajun English. I don’t know if this is true for all of those speaking a Cajun dialect, but I wonder if it is beginning to die out.

We have a friend who is a Cajun. His parents lived in the heart of the Cajun area of Louisiana and spoke only French. Our friend is bilingual and speaks English in a Cajun dialect which is very beautiful to my ears. Our friend’s children are all grown now. The speak a little French and they know all the Cajun regionalisms, but they speak in a Southern dialect that is different from their father’s. It is not the Cajun dialect.

We just lost one of the most beautiful voices in American culture. I could listen to Shelby Foote speak for hours. He was originally from Mississippi and had lived in Memphis for many years. What a loss it would have been if his particular Southern dialect had been somehow sanitized and “standardized” for television production.

[Askia]

@magellan01

I may very well misunderstand what ebonics is. But I think it matters little, because I think I understand what it is NOT. It is not the language that is going to get you through the interview for a good-paying job with a bright future.

Right. Cuz with outsourcing of India, the only bright future will be being polygot and speaking Hindi.

[magellan01]

@Askia

magellan01. I don’t think the hypothetical black kid in your example would appreciate the condescension of being ordered to come into the fold and when you’re not even willing to legitimize his native dialect if he can navigate his world using the patios he grew up using all his life with 90% accuracy, nahwhatImsayin? Whatchoo thank he is, some kind of bitch or some? What he need to go do that extra 10% fo’? You feelin’ me?

Oh, really? He would find it insulting that I want him to go to college, maybe graduate school, become a doctor, engineer, or lawyer? He would be offended because I want a better life for him than his neighborhood offers him? He would cringe at the idea that I want him to go on an interview for a grreat job and make a terrific impression? I don’t think so. I want him to participate fully in the best this society has to offer

THAT "what he need to go do that fo’.

[magellan01]

@Askia

Right. Cuz with outsourcing of India, the only bright future will be being polygot and speaking Hindi.

Oh, now I understand. Since there are so few opportunities for our kid from San Bernardino, and they are getting fewer by the day, why teach him proper English? HELL, why teach him anything at all? Just build more prisons and more efficient morgues. Interestiing take…

You know, it really helps to think things out a little before pecking at the keys.