Do you think difficult games were something Miyazaki pioneered? (Ever played Ghosts 'n Goblins?..1985 I think)
That’s literally what the thread is about. The general discussions about game progress have actually been the hijack. 
Again, I’m more than willing to discuss any specific points I made if you have objections, but none of what I’ve written is exclusive to Elden Ring.
Did it? I mean, I know it invented the whole “Soulslike” genre of games, but how much of an influence has it had outside of its niche? One could argue that Dark Souls and its descendants didn’t so much revolutionize gaming, as seceded from it.
There is a loose genre (more of a descriptor than a genre) called “souls-like,” so it’s definitely an influential series. “Revolutionized gaming” is a bit much, though.
Agreed. And Souls-Like is a subset of intentionally difficult games, ones with RPG elements and 3rd person arcade combat against monsters. You wouldn’t call a Bullet Hell game a Souls-Like just because it’s hard, because Souls-Like doesn’t just mean “Hard”.
Remember also that “intentionally difficult” games are ultimately the descendants of arcade games, which were designed to kill you a lot in order to take your quarters.
I’ll also note that although “Souls-Like” is a genre tag, not all games (maybe not most games) are really related in a meaningful way. God of War on Steam has the tag. Darksiders has the tag. Foregone has the tag and it’s not at all meaningfully Souls-Like aside from having to reclaim your cash when you die.
Often a game is “Souls-Like” because you fight big monsters in 3rd person arcade combat (which wasn’t invented here), not really because of the whole difficulty angle.
I like your analogy.
I’ll tweak it again (not sure it helps but doing it anyway).
Let’s say the chef wants to sprinkle chopped peanuts or cilantro on his tacos. You cannot get them any other way because that is his “intent” for those tacos. Never mind if you have the cilantro tastes like soap gene or are allergic to nuts. If that is a problem for you then tough. No tacos for you.
The thing is, leaving the sprinkled nuts or cilantro off is trivial. Anyone who wants nuts or cilantro can have that. The chef holding himself out to refuse to modify the food in any way seems weird and unnecessary.
To link that analogy to the game I simply suck at twitch games. I know people above said this is not a twitch game but I have seen many videos were surviving relied on precision timing of dodges. Mess one (maybe two) up and start again.
I’d love to play this game but what is hard for others is near impossible for me. I am not disabled but I simply don’t press buttons fast enough to be good in such games. But I would love to play the game. It looks like fun. What is easy for you (general “you”) is still hard for me. I can get the whole “experience” of a difficult game if there was a difficulty slider that matched my skill set.
Instead the developer has a “git gud” mindset that locks some people out.
Near as I can figure the only reason for this is it breeds a sense of, “I am in the club.” But that gets toxic fast. The YouTuber AngryJoe just released his video review of Elden Ring. He absolutely loves it but, during their discussion, they noted they hate the crowd of people who gatekeep the game. “You didn’t finish the game while playing naked and eating a ham sandwich? You suck!”
I was really impressed to hear the Dead Cells dev talk about that. Same “vision” for the game: to have it be hard and you fail a lot and have to climb that mountain. But also able to say “You know what? Who am I to define to you what’s ‘hard’ to make the experience meaningful?” There’s a maturity there that Miyazaki’s vision frankly lacks.
I’ll append this to say that you do get the flipside as well. Games like Ori or Hollowknight getting called Souls-Like just because they’re hard when they’re more accurately Metroidvanias, another category of traditionally difficult games and one far older than Souls games.
To be fair, I believe Dead Cells bills itself as a “soulslite” game as well as a metroidvania roguelite. Its combat is definitely more involved than (many? most? all of?) the metroidvania games that came before it.
On the other hand, I’m not sure the “soulslite” descriptor says anything not already covered by the intersection of “metroidvania” and “roguelite.” It strikes me as an effective marketing strategy more than anything else.
That is a fair analogy that focusses on the point of difference in our opinions I think. I believe that if an artist has created what they wanted in the way they wanted it then it’s not really open for critique in the form of saying the artist has made mistakes. It’s fine to say we don’t like it, that’s always up for grabs, but to say you’ve achieved what you wanted to achieve in the wrong way and have the artist say “but that’s the way I wanted to achieve it” then it pretty much just has to stop there.
I don’t know if Miyazaki is open to other implementations to achieving his intent, but I would say that if he is not, then the implementation is part of the intent. It is clear that some parts of the implementation is open for discussion, he’s happy with an open world and to tweak how some of the mechanics work, but it seems that after his 7th game with no difficulty slider, that is actually part of the intent.
Well, that’s the same as the salty food chef. If his intent is to have the food taste a particular way, then that’s it. If you don’t like it, you don’t like it, and there’s no point stating the fact more than once. He’s obviously not going to change it, and if he’s not going to change it then what’s the point of the discussion? Far better to discuss that other chefs, more open to these ideas, would do well to have tacos with optional nuts and cilantro. But then it would be pointed out that other chefs do have tacos like this, and then again what’s the point?
Some of the hardest enemies, in my opinion, are ones that have slow / delayed attack animations. It’s not about how fast you can react, it’s about timing your moves. It’s about doing an action, waiting to see what happens, then doing another action. It’s about being patient and not rushing to kill something (something I’m weak at). Decision making is probably a bigger skill than reflex button pushing. There are memes making fun of Eldon Ring’s slow enemy attack animations that invariably have the uninitiated dodging too soon rather than too late. It’s quite common to do two full dodge rolls and still be staring at the enemy’s sword come crashing down and killing you.
Yep that element is definitely out there. And there is zero reason to interact with any of them.
This has been making the rounds on Reddit the past few days: This guy gets summoned into Malenia’s bossfight wearing only a jar for a helmet, and single-handedly takes her down (with 2 summons, she has double her regular health). There’s already memes and fan art of this guy!
I was wondering where those memes were from.
That’s your opinion, and I’m no expert, but I’m pretty sure that’s contrary to the way it works everywhere outside this thread. The artist never gets to say, “that’s it, all criticism must now stop because I am content.”
The artist is free to ignore the criticism, but they’re free to do that from jump. I suspect many of the greatest artists never bother to look at a critique and simply make what they want to make. But out here in our space as consumers and viewers, we’re equally free to state our cases so long as we’re being constructive and thoughtful. And in that constructive and thoughtful space, which will ultimately have zero impact on future works by the artist in question, I struggle to see the value of shutting down a conversation by saying it’s tedious or without merit.
To emphasis this with a quote from a very handsome poster way up-thread:
Some here may find this interesting:
One thing I didn’t know that might make some difference is that Ranni’s ending effectively preempts your own. You’re still Elden Lord in the end but it’s all about her for the final moments of the game and you don’t get to see yourself taking the throne or anything. When I got her ending, it was less about choosing her over me and more that there was a glowing floor thing to summon her and I thought it would be more her being around in a support role for my moment. I might not have selected her had I known (not that I care that much but I also wasn’t all that invested in her to prioritize her)
Just finished hunting someone for Volcano manor…got sweet armor…found another target then realized I had summoned that guy before. So im like "Wait a sec…if i hunt all these guys down, I may be screwing myself later as far as summons go. Eff that.
Tragoth? He’s the only npc you’ll have encountered before in the Volcano Manor quests (I think)
You’re not.