Elections have consequences

To all the people who couldn’t vote for Hillary in 2016, Everything that is going on is your fault. All I have to say is FUCK YOU!

Eh, I’d point the finger at 2012, not 2016.

If Hillary had won, it wouldn’t necessarily have prevented Trumpism, it probably would have just delayed it by 4 more years. (Not necessarily Trump himself, but the sentiment.) Plus, it’s hard for a party to hold onto the White House for longer than twelve years (I believe no party’s pulled that off since World War II?) So Hillary would have probably lost in 2020, and we’d see a Trump-like guy winning. If might be a saner, even more dangerous version of Trump, someone like Tom Cotton.

But 2012 was really the event that set Trumpism in motion to begin with. Had Romney won in 2012, it’s a safe bet that Trumpism would have been squashed in its infancy - you don’t successfully challenge an incumbent president. Trump would never have taken the reins of the GOP, he would have been seen as the ludicrous immature 70-year old petulant horror that he is. And with that movement nipped in the bud, we’d still see the continuation of normal D and R presidents. I think Romney would get reelected in 2016, and while Democrats would probably win in 2020, at least it’s normalcy.

On top of that, the character assassination of a mostly honorable and decent Romney in 2012 by the D’s also played a big role in Trumpism. The R’s realized that the D’s were going to play the “he’s a horrific sexist right-wing extremist” card no matter what, so they threw up their hands and decided to nominate the real deal.

“Couldn’t”? You mean, like, people who don’t live in the U.S.?

I think the blame can be shared by Hillary herself and the DNC. Hillary should have realized what a terrible candidate she was instead of spending 14+ years working behind the scenes to get the nomination tied up. The DNC should have groomed a better candidate with a lot less baggage and a lot more charisma.

I also blame the RNC that had such a wide and bad field in 2016. This allowed a joke candidate like Trump to hang around and build momentum.

I blame the news networks for giving said clown so much free publicity. They couldn’t help themselves and fucked the US over pretty badly.


BTW: I voted for Hillary, but she was a terrible candidate. Would have been a far better President than Trump, but she was a terrible candidate. Probably smarter than her husband but she actually had almost no appeal to the voters. 2016 came down to choosing between two terrible candidates and worst one won.


It’s un-American to not live in America, dammit!

You know, some exhausted part of me just wants to sit back and watch as this country slides into the shitter. There is a curiosity there that I’d kind of like to explore: Just what will it take, how badly do people have to get fucked before they drop the apathy and vote?

Really wish people would stop saying she was a terrible candidate. That term should be reserved for candidates who are unsuitable for the job and could be predicted to fuck up at it, and that doesn’t describe Hillary. She would have been perfectly competent and acceptable as President, and those facts made her an excellent candidate.

I’ll concede that she was a terrible campaigner.

“Terrible Candidate” has a clear meaning. As a candidate, she was terrible.

Candidate: 1. a person who applies for a job or is nominated for election.

Trying to change the meaning of the word that perfectly describes the situation makes little sense to me.

The damage done by Donald Trump is the fault of Trump and those who support him. They make their own choices and are accountable for their actions. No one forces them to act as they do.

I think things would have been different if Hillary had won, but I’m not sure how different. The Republican senate probably would have still refused to approve any judges for the supreme court. Or any lower court for that matter. The Republican controlled house would have immediately started impeachment proceedings for any made up bullshit that they could think of. Probably would have been an ongoing series of impeachments. It would have been a shit show.

Not exactly what I responded to though with the rant in the OP.

This is different from what you wrote.

Seemed to me that her '08 and '16 campaigns were both based on “It’s MY TURN!”, with a minor in “You want a woman president, right?”

Not particularly inspiring, that.

If Hillary had won in 2016 it would have been deadlock, peppered with a series of impeachment attempts. COVID would have hit. We would have had a MUCH better response and deaths limited to 50,000-100,000. The Republicans would have become the party of Public Health and would have CRUCIFIED Hillary over these deaths - Fox news would be running a death counter non-stop (look how they responded to a handful of Ebola cases with Obama). Trump would run in 2020 and beat her by a landslide.

So long as they can point to someone else being fucked worse, they will remain so.

I’ll agree with @What_Exit that she was a terrible candidate. People seem to focus on how a candidate is presented by the other side, and allow that to guide their decisions. They don’t pay any attention to what the candidate actually says, only what their enemies say about them. They allow the narrative of the other side to make them hesitant to vote for the person who would serve in office better.

It’s a fairly natural thing, humans fall into that trap all the time. It’s based partly on ignorance, partly on faulty logic, and partly on laziness. The desire to be a “centrist” and to be above both sides is a strong pull. It encourages one to diminish the problems of one side, and magnify any issue on the other. It lets them play the “adult in the room” above such petty bickering, when really, they are being childish and irresponsible, entirely abrogating their responsibility as citizens.

Democracy requires vigilance, without which, it falls. I don’t know that we have that any more. Obviously the right no longer has any interest in maintaining a healthy democracy, but it also seems as though some on the left are becoming more interested in complaining that they don’t have a perfect candidate than actually winning elections and preserving our union.

The OP does neglect to mention that it’s not just the presidential elections that have consequences. It’s every election. If you show up to vote for a president, but then don’t show up for the midterms to give them a congress to work with them, then you can only blame yourself, not the president. If you only care about national issues, and don’t pay attention to the local and state stuff, then you are allowing the other side to take control with gerrymandering and voter suppression. If you don’t pay attention to school board and levy votes, then your community will be taught to the standards of those who do. If you don’t pay attention to your local leaders, you may blame local crime, poverty, or road status on national candidates, even though they have no effect on it, and you really have little effect on them as well.

Republicans accept the flaws of their candidates, not only accept but glorify, while the left damns anyone even slightly out of line. “Grab 'em by the pussy”? Yeah, that’s just how a real man talks. “Basket of deplorables”? Oh no, she called bigots deplorable!

Our country is fucked, and it’s not just the Republicans who are at fault.

When told that a candidate said something like “She said that Republicans are deplorable.” They could explain that the candidate did nothing of the sort, but instead agree that she shouldn’t have said that, she’s such a bad candidate. When told, “She said she was going to get rid of coal miners.” They once again, could explain that that was not what was said, and in fact, the exact opposite of that, if listened to in context, but they instead just sit back and nod their heads that she’s such a terrible candidate.

Any candidate would be a terrible candidate when you simply let the right define that candidate for you. They have weaponized misinformation and innuendo, and it’s not just the right that falls for it.

Some people voted for Clinton, but complained about it, talked about how they had to “hold their nose”, or how she was such a horrible candidate. I blame those people too for Trump’s win. Great that you voted for her, but how many did you turn off from voting for her, how many didn’t want to “hold their nose” or vote for such a horrible candidate?

It doesn’t matter if Bernie had won the nomination, or anyone else for that matter. The right wing disinformation and propaganda would have gotten to work, and whoever got the nomination would be seen as a terrible candidate.

Hate is a powerful tool, and the right has mastered its use, not only on their own party, but on the Democrats as well. So long as people, even on “our” side, are so easily manipulated by it, it will continue to be an uphill battle to just maintain the progress we have made, much less actually move forward.

The problem is not which candidate ran. The problem is that the Republicans have been steadily undermining democracy for decades and the Democrats have done fuck-all about it.

Does this mean the current situation is the Democrats’ fault? Eh - maybe a little, but I don’t really buy the whole “It’s your fault for not stopping me from being evil” argument. Even though the Democrats remain completely ineffectual nitwits, the GOP are now openly traitorous scum, and half the country seem fine with that.

You definition doesn’t really change anything.

If you are hiring a computer programmer to implement code, it shouldn’t matter if they have a stutter. The stutter may make them a terrible interview, but it doesn’t make them a bad candidate.

By your “definition”, you would hire the smooth talking know-nothing over the stuttering computer genius.

That’s not how you evaluate quality employees, and it’s not how you should evaluate political candidates.

That people do so anyway is a flaw, something that they should stop doing, not something to brag about and rationalize.

Candidates for office, especially high office, need to sell themselves to the public. That is reality. It is far from the same as an interview for an office job.

Is this a good thing? No, its not, but it is reality.

Who’s bragging about it anyway? I voted for Hillary, thought she was a better candidate than Trump along with being far more qualified.

It’s the fault of any Democrat who doesn’t get out and vote.

I’m enjoying how people still act like it’s the primarily the fault of the candidate who, at that time, had won more votes for President than anybody in American history not named Barack Obama.

It’s the fault of anyone voting for the Republican.

I’m old enough to remember when there were Republicans worth voting for (hell, I used to be a registered Republican). That was a long time ago. These days, the phrase “hen’s teeth” comes to mind.