Today it’s being reported that one of Elian’s grandmothers bit his tongue and pulled down his pants to “see if it’s grown”. In the U.S., this would warrant a visit from DCFS, at least. As for the tongue biting, I can see it, as long as it no blood was drawn, which no one said it was. OK, cultural differences. But the thing about unzipping his pants to look at his pee-pee is very weird. Why would any Grandma want to see her grandson’s penis? And make such a comment? Sounds creepy to me.
Jeff
Do you recall where you saw this news item?
Considering how many 3-4 year old boys proudly “show off” their equipment to their parents, siblings, and even schoolmates, it wouldn’t surprise me if there weren’t some cultures out there where the adults “help out” with this urge rather than naysaying it.
After all, if you lived in a nudist society, you wouldn’t think twice about looking at each others’ tallywhackers while you were growing up.
Bricker,
I saw it here
http://www.foxnews.com/fn99/national/020300/cubaboy.sml
I think this is a perfect example of cultural differences being misunderstood (from what I’ve read in the article.)
There was a similar case in Maine with an Afghan father kissing his baby son’s penis.
On the other hand, female circumcision (for example) is actually mutilation of the body and human rights should supersede traditional customs.
Cultural by all means and I seriously doubt if the tongue bite was actually painful. I recall some American elderly people playing games with their grandchildren by ‘pinching’ their tongues between the first two fingers of the hand and coming away with the tip of their own thumb poking through and stating that they had snatched the kids tongue.
Plus, you have to contend with the news media reporting this and we all know how they like to state the facts.
I was in Cuba briefly some years ago and the place is kind of backwards, well, a whole damn lot backwards. It looks kind of like it is stuck in the Ricky Richardo’s type of Cuba but I’m biased because I never particularly liked the Cuban stereotype and was not all that pleased with Cuba when I was there. The only thing they got going for them is the Cigars, and I hate cigars. (Oh yeah. Rum. GOOD RUM!)
This bunch of crap about protests or demonstrations by the people demanding Elian back is a bunch of crap also because the ‘government’ puts the people up to it. Castro encourages the people to protest but the average Cuban there could hardly give a shit if the kid returns or not. Basically, Castro, the old fart, is bored because he hasn’t been able to stir up much trouble these days, the commies are too busy to pay him much attention anymore, tourism is down because of sanctions and this is just something to do.
Follow the link below to a GREAT look at the ‘Keystone Cubans’ and their struggle to return home as NEVER before explained. It cracked me up and it IS true. (I hope the friggin link works because I’ve never tried to make one before.)
I’m on a mailing list for discussion of Central American politics and we’ve been kicking around this topic for the past 24. All the actual Central Americans on the list are mystified by the American reaction. It is, apparently, just a cultural difference.
So was (is) cannibalism. That didn’t make it right, even if the main course had died a natural death (therefore “victimless”).
I doubt that even nudists would support the idea of touching a youngter’s privates just to get him to “warm up” or “cheer him up.” Looking at tallywhackers is one thing; touching/fondling is another.
I’ve changed my mind about sending Elian back. A culture that is so backward or ignorant as to not only allow, but actually support, actions like that is not a culture, in my opinion, that is a fit environment for children.
Well, personally I don’t think there is anything “wrong” with cannibalism of a person who died naturally. I think it’s gross, but I can’t find any moral problem with it. So your analogy doesn’t really work for me.
I dunno Rysdad, you seem to have … issues. I think it’s important to keep in mind that this wasn’t in fact a fondling. There was no sexual connotation, she just said she wanted to see if it had grown - reflecting a common tradition in some Latin American countries of parents boasting about the size of their son’s genitals. Of course we outside of that culture are going to find this tradition distasteful; it isn’t easy for us to separate the “sex” from the sexual organs. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t possible for other cultures to do so. Without evidence (or even substantial reason to believe) that Latino children are psychologically harmed by this custom, it seems a bit extreme to declare it grounds for asylum.
Besides, can’t you just see the can of worms this would open up? "Your honor, you must allow my children to remain in the US, if they go back to Mexico their grandmothers might ask about their penis size … " :rolleyes:
How about transmission of disease?
Regarding the fondling… Again, just because it’s a common tradition doesn’t make it right. I have no statistics on the psychological harm caused by that custom, but my years of experience as a volunteer for a children’s emergency shelter tell me that that specific custom is abhorrent.
My opinion stands as previously stated.
Like I said Rysdad … I don’t see a MORAL problem with it.
Ah, that explains the issues. You have experience with the custom of an adult using an unwilling child for the purpose of providing sexual gratification - which is abhorrent. But it isn’t what happened here. I was molested as a child. I know the difference.
I also think if there’s any place that isn’t a fit environment for children, it’s a poor neighborhood in one of the most crime-ridden parts of the country. Elián has far more to fear from his neighbors than he does from his grandmother.
I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree here. The poorest areas of Miami are still probably superior, in a standard of living sense, than where Elian came from.
I don’t have any Cuban crime statistics, so I can’t argue that point, but it’s my feeling that living in poverty is its own sort of violence.
Your points are well-taken, though. My cultural biases do blind me somewhat to seeing his grandmother’s act as anything but abuse. It may not have been, but it seems like it was to me.
I should add that, as a father, I hate the idea of a father and son being separated.
In any event, it’s my guess that Elian will eventually be returned to Cuba. I wish him well, whatever happens.
Some of the sexual aspect is TRUELY in the eye or MIND of the readers (and viewers) here.
The news accounts DO NOT admit to any “fondling”, just pulling the fly down.
We’re talking the equivalent of a wedgie or de=pantsing at best. In fact it was much less. Fantasize and then comdemn all you want about fondling - it doesn’t seem to be what happened here, at all.
And then to draw an analogy about cannibalism being cultural, but not right either, etc… get a grip.
Rysdad wrote:
Like it says on store-bought packages of hamburger: Just make sure you wash your hands first and cook him thoroughly at high temperature. Sheesh! Do I gotta explain everything around here? 
BTW, I’ve heard that cannibalistic cultures restrict their consumption of “long pig” to tribal enemies that they’ve killed in battle. In other words, it’s more ritual than nutritional; they don’t go out and “hunt” people for food.
And here we get into the very sticky area of “my way is the right way; my country is morally superior; you people are savages” line of thinking. Being the most powerful nation in the world does not give the US the right to tell other countries how to shape their culture. Even in extreme cases, such as female genital mutilation, I beleive the US must be very careful about throwing it’s weight around. When there is a clear human rights violation, I believe we should try to change it, but the best way to do that is through re-education. It is not an easy thing to change centuries old traditions, either for the change-er or the change-ee. To run screaming about what brutal savages “those” people are does not promote an environment wherein change is possible. Instead it creates hostility and resentment of the interfering party.
Not too many years ago in the US, we found it perfectly acceptable to give Jr. a good whooping. On our own, we came to decide this was a bad thing. But how would we have felt if there had been a country with enough power to hurt our economy or threaten to bomb us, who forced us into changing our practices? I would venture to guess that we would likely still be pissed off at them to this day.
Human rights, IMO, includes allowing other cultures to grow and develop as they see fit. They deserve to be recognized as the independant nations that they are and are not required to conform to American ideas of what is right and wrong.
“I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal
I’m going to try and expand on what I’ve said and then leave this topic alone.
Re: The US and moral standards - The US impresses it’s ethical beliefs on other countries on a daily basis, and rightfully so. Whether you believe that the US has the right to do so or not, you should grant that, oftentimes, it has the obligation.
Let’s take the examples of female mutilation, asian foot binding, and the wearing of neck rings to make the neck look longer.
In all of these examples, it was eventually shown to the practitioners to be harmful. Since, the practices have dwindled. Was it some sort of “westernization” that effected this change? I think so. Did the victims believe they were being victimized? Not until they were shown that actual damage was being done.
Unfortunately, sexual abuse doesn’t always leave physical evidence.
Re: Whether what Abuela Quintana did was a sexual act. - Exposing a little boy’s genitals is, by definition, a sexual act. Otherwise, why couldn’t she have asked how much his feet had grown or how big his biceps were? Why the penis? Would anything similar have been done to a little girl? Doubtful.
Cuban society is considerably more “macho” than the US. Manhood is more strongly defined and defended. If anything, this would tend to make her act more humiliating, although a 6-year old might not see it that way, yet.
So, at what age does it become not ok to expose a child’s genitals? When he’s old enough to fight back? Doesn’t that imply that it’s an act only performed on a defenseless child?
Was Elian unwilling to have his pants unzipped? Probably. It’s embarrassing. Would the grandmother have gone further if there hadn’t been someone supervising the encounter? We can’t know. If she had, though, would that have been abuse? You decide.
And, wedgies and de-pantsing are humiliating, and shouldn’t be done to a child either. They’re both an attack on someone’s self-esteem, part of which is grounded in the person’s sexuality.
Somewhere along the continuum you have to go from “that’s ok” to “that’s wrong.” I think what she did was wrong. Look at it this way…would you allow a child of yours to be subjected to the same treatment, even if grandma was from the old country (wherever)? Why not? Are your morals beliefs superior to grandma’s?
If you find my moral beliefs parochial, so be it. I’m comfortable with them. And unless you’re willing to have Elian’s grandmother inspect your son, then I’d say you’re being hypocritical.
Re: Cannibalism - I’ve also read that, besides slaughtered enemies, they also consumed parts of their “honored dead” (chieftans, shamans). That’s how the brain disease kuru is passed on.
In sum, if I believe what I’ve heard and read about the environment in Cuba, then I have to believe that Elian would be better off here.
Well, firstly, poverty is not the issue here, USA dislike of a different political regime is the issue. Haitian boat people routinely get turned back and/or deporate with nary a peep from US citizens.
And secondly, I’ve read that Cuba has a very good health care system. Of course, Elian might be missing out on colour TV, Nintendo and McDonald’s, but my personal opinion is you can live a productive live even without those cultural “necessities”.
Arnold:
And secondly, I’ve read that Cuba has a very good health care system. Of course, Elian might be missing out on colour TV, Nintendo and McDonald’s, but my personal opinion is you can live a productive live even without those cultural “necessities”.
Excellent health care system, if you like living in something like the late 1960s and 70s. I don’t think they do heart or organ transplants there and their sources of up to date medication are few, but they can get all of the medications from Europe that we will not allow here. The last I was informed of, their hospital ‘wards’ look like something out of a Russian Hospital, with plenty of old equipment and out dated supplies. I doubt if you will find much in the way of the latest prosthetic implants for anything other than a hip joint and I’m not real sure if they have magnetic imaging.
Now they have the highest quality of stainless steel bedpans! Their doctors don’t have much incentive, aside from finances, to be very empathetic towards the people they work on either. In fact, they tend to be some of the elite of society and their mistakes don’t get them dragged into court.
That might explain why we’ve had to arrest some Cuban Doctors who have done surgical procedures in the patients home and ignored them as they bled to death later. I got a big charge out of the last one who did some plastic major surgery on a lady IN HER UNSTERILE BED, bandaged her up and failed to be concerned when her daughter called concerning her massive bleeding and subsequent pain. He was arrested after she died and the Cuban community protested, claiming that such practice in the home was ‘normal’ in their homeland.
100% literacy is easy when you have no civil rights and you MUST learn to read, but then, your reading material is restricted later on to government approved texts.
Plus, the Cuban male still considers HIMSELF MR. MACHO, in that HIS needs comes before the woman’s – and probably anyone else’s. Miami has a massive amount of young Cuban MACHOs cutting each other up over imagined insults of pride. That’s OK, though, because they’re busily eliminating the most stupid and hostile of each other and those who remain are more adaptable and agreeable.
Besides, the Macho Cubans are still harassing the US government to go over and fight to recover the homeland they ran from without putting up a struggle and in the mean time, happily turning Miami into a Spanish speaking little version of the GREAT CUBA. Funny, almost all nationalities who decided to remain here eventually learned English and never managed to get laws past REQUIRING that the schools become bilingual so their stupid kids won’t have to learn English. Nor did any other nationality require local street signs, businesses and papers print speak and print in their language like the Cubans have managed to get passed in Miami.
I keep waiting for them to prohibit the American flag from being flown anywhere in Miami.
I had a chat with a lady who worked for a nice Cuban doctor here. He’s cool, speaks great English and all but his mother, who lives here also, doesn’t. When she was asked why she did not learn English, she said she did NOT LIKE American or Americans and would not stoop to learning their filthy language. Yet, she lives quite well in the expensive home and funds her well off son provides for her and buys many, many American luxuries and has no plans for going back to Cuba.
What? Me worry?’
Huh ? Thank goodness this wasn’t true pre-Rosa Parks.
For that matter, whose “ethical beliefs” in the U.S. ? The Idaho panhandle Posse Comitatus ? NYC ?