"Elizabeth and God" -- an atheist ponders

[selection]

246810 is the classic brainwashed christian. You desperately need to start thinking for yourself, for your own good. It is OK to be skeptical. It is OK to say “hey, this doesn’t make much sense” even if what you are referring to is something that a lot of people believe in. You have nothing to lose. If you question your religion and it survives the rigor of your questioning, haven’t you gained belief in that relgion? And on the same token, if you question your religion and it fails the rigor of your questioning, haven’t you made a pretty important discovery? I am a work-in-process when it comes to my religious beliefs or lack thereof. If I examined a religion and it sounded legit, believe me I would be the first to join in, but my experiences thus far have been exactly the opposite with all the religions I’ve studied. I don’t murder, i don’t steal, etc, and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that they were supposedly written on a stone tablet.

if we didn’t have God and his commandments there would be no reason not to do those things.

what about all the horrible things that aren’t spoken of or forbidden by the ten commandments? Do you do them on a regular basis? I highly doubt it, so there IS a reason not to do those things. There are many atheists roaming the earth, doing good things, and promoting the welfare of the human race. How do you explain that?
Lastly, 246810. I don’t know if you know this, but in a certain sense you are also an atheist just like me. There are many relgions on this planet(less than 30% of the world is catholic), and many of them worship completely different Gods. You don’t believe in all of them right 246810? There are some that you completely dismiss right? As soon as you realize why you dismiss all other these other gods/religions, you will understand why I dismiss yours. There are hundreds of Gods that you could worship and devote your life to. You believe in 1. I believe in 0. We are not far off.

[246810]

The point I am making is that nobody here believes in God, or Jesus Christ, if they did they would know that all this talk here is frivolous. I am not coming to this “Debate” to talk about frivolous stuff, I am here to tell you what I know. So, you want me to have a 2 dimensional witness, that means I have to agree with you all in some way. The truth is that all these question that you have can be answered threw the bible, and If you would just ask God to help you understand, I know that you will understand what I am saying. I truly am not here to act like some righteous church going person. I don’t go to church. I tried once, but it was to much of a social thing, so I left. Don’t believe, or even listen to all the church’s say, just ask God, and in the bible, you will find the truth.

[Guinastasia]

I believe in God, and technically I’m Catholic (though non-practicing), but I don’t know if I believe in Christianity and if Jesus is God and all that.

I do believe in the Sermon on the Mount and the story of the Goats and the Sheep. (Whatsoever you do to the least of them, that you do unto me).

Also, telling people they are brainwashed isn’t likely to go over well.

[Cervaise]

Yeah yeah yeah, we’ve heard it.

The point I am making is that nobody here believes in God, or Jesus Christ

Plenty of people here have faith. For Pete’s sake, go read the thread I linked to.

[246810]

I am talking about everyone who has posted in this thread.

[246810]

I take it that you don’t believe in God Cercaise?

[Guinastasia]

Look, 246810, witnessing about your religion is NOT the purpose of this board-fighting ignorance is. This is the forum that witnessing, if any, should go in, but do NOT expect people to be very receptive, if this is your approach. Okay?

I believe what I believe. However, keep in mind, you do not KNOW. You BELIEVE. That’s why it’s called FAITH.

[musicguy]

*Originally posted by 246810 *
**I am talking about everyone who has posted in this thread. **

And yet, just two posts above yours is guin stating that she does believe in God. You are being pretty presumptuous.

:rolleyes:

[Cervaise]

Sheesh. What part of “please don’t hijack this thread” is unclear?

If you’d like to challenge the atheists on this board, you’re free to start your own thread. First read the other thread I linked, though, to get a sense of how successful you’re likely to be.

But please, stop getting in the way here. That’s not what this discussion is about.

Don’t expect me to respond again in this thread.

[Raygun99]

Originally posted by 246810 *
** The truth is that all these question that you have can be answered threw the bible*

I think a lot of people would have their questions answered if they threw away their bible, too.

[Doc_Nickel]

*Originally posted by Race Bannon *
**Well, to me (an atheist) this approach has a problem.

Where does the concept that God doesn’t interfere with free will fit in this explanation? That is, if God doesn’t usurp the free will of the auto mechanic you mention, causing him to take that road where the stranded motorist is praying for help, then how is it that God “arranges” these coincidences?

Maybe the choice of road seems like a trivial matter, but it could be equally trivial for God to give an “impulse” to a would-be kidnapper to just not decide to perform a kidnapping on some particular day.

The standard explaination is that God won’t do this because the kidnapper has free will. Fine, but then how is it that the auto mechanic is “arranged” to take a left turn in order to help a motorist, when by his own habit and free will, he would have taken a right turn to get to work on time?

Maybe it’s okay because the auto mechanic is a “good” human being, willing to let God manipulate him. But then, there’s no reason to believe the would-be kidnapper is evil until he actually performs the kidnapping, is there? So if God would intervene, say, give him an “impulse” to visit church that day, he wouldn’t turn out to be evil at all, would he? **

-Eloquently put. I agree.

PolyCarp’s kid had an “impulse” to see him when he was having a heart attack. Okay, now over in the GQ thread about Crime Scene Cleanup (which I can’t find at the moment) one of the linked stories mentioned a man who had a heart attack in his car, and wasn’t discovered for three months.

Now, is the difference literally Divine Intevention, or is it simply random chance and coincidence?

Do you believe in god?
Do you believe in Jesus Christ?

No more than I “believe” in Jack Ryan or Admiral Greer. Or Bill and Opus.

[Polycarp]

Race Bannon, I think you find the difference in the freedom to choose. If I feel an impulse to do something, and believe it to be inspired by God, I will feel myself strongly called to do that something – but I do preserve my freedom to choose whether or not to do it.

PolyCarp’s kid had an “impulse” to see him when he was having a heart attack. Okay, now over in the GQ thread about Crime Scene Cleanup (which I can’t find at the moment) one of the linked stories mentioned a man who had a heart attack in his car, and wasn’t discovered for three months.

Now, is the difference literally Divine Intevention, or is it simply random chance and coincidence?

Doc, I fully and freely admit that I don’t have a clue. Speaking very selfishly and personally, though, I’m very glad that I was the first example and not the second.

I positively hate the “mysterious ways” copout – but I don’t have a quick-and-dirty explanation for the prevalence of matter over antimatter in the known Universe, either, and bluntly, I’d like to find out the answer to both those questions.

Key to all this to me, however, is in the idea, which I sincerely believe, that God predominantly works through individuals who are willing to let Him work through them. I wouldn’t be here today if Jay hadn’t followed that impulse; I wouldn’t be posting this on this board today if Scotticher hadn’t followed what she perceived as a call. And I thank God for both of them, and a host of other good people, some of whom don’t see things in this light. I suspect that the truth about all of this is going to astound each and every one of us, whatever our theological inclinations, when we finally get it laid out in clear terms.

[Doc_Nickel]

Doc, I fully and freely admit that I don’t have a clue. Speaking very selfishly and personally, though, I’m very glad that I was the first example and not the second.

-Understandably. The difference is literally life or death. One does not survive such events unchanged.

However, your interpretation on the causes and whys is based purely on (as noted in another thread) irrational emotion, not logic. Other people have had similar experiences, and due to their background, upbringing or even recent reading material, might attribute their salvation to spirits of their dearly departed, or L. Ron’s spacemen, or wood faeries.

How do you make the leap of logic from a vague “impulse” leading to saving your life, to thereby assuming the whole tapestry of God, Christ, the Resurrection, et al, is true and even somewhat accurate?

I had an “impulse” last night to buy some ginger ale. I don’t know why. I hadn’t had any in literally many years. I wasn’t watching any TV or listening to the radio. I noticed I was out of ‘Dew’, and on the way to the store, I suddenly thought, you know, I ought to get some Canada Dry instead.

I bought a 12-pack, came home, had a can. I finished up the evening typing out some E-mails.

Was that Divine Inspiration? If so, why? God thinks I’m getting too much Caffeine? Other than that, it’s pretty much the same drink. Nothing at all occurred either during the drive nor the visit to the store that was in the least out of place. Nothing happened here at the house while I was gone- I wasn’t saved from a house fire, and as far as I know, no serial axe-murderers came shambling through and left disappointed there weren’t any victims around.

If that “impulse”- out of the blue, uninspired by any external stimuli I was aware of- wasn’t “divine”, then what differentiates that from a divine one?

I once had the inspiration to visit a buddy of mine- again, purely out of the blue. Hadn’t seen him in a couple of weeks. I showed up and the first thing he said was “You’re just in time! I need a ride to the mall.”

So I should assume God sent me there as a taxi? He is a theist, though I assume he didn’t “pray for a ride”. I, needless to say, am a nontheist. By your thought that those willing to be used can be, I would probably be one of the more difficult, if not impossible, individuals He could have used. I would definitely have interpreted being “used” thus as a subversion of my free will.

If we can have nondivine impulses, how, then, can you- or anyone- possibly know which is divine and which isn’t? Are only lifesaving ones Divine? What about that time I suddenly felt the urge to get a donut from the breakroom, and just as I shut down Quake 2 in order to make the trip, the boss came by unexpectedly. Divine intervention or blind luck?

The Native Americans used no horses in their mythology until the Europeans brought some over. Had you not been a theist or had never read the Bible, what would you have based your saved-life event upon, without the knowledge of your religion?

[Raygun99]

*Originally posted by Doc Nickel ***
I had an “impulse” last night to buy some ginger ale. I don’t know why. I hadn’t had any in literally many years. I wasn’t watching any TV or listening to the radio. I noticed I was out of ‘Dew’, and on the way to the store, I suddenly thought, you know, I ought to get some Canada Dry instead.

I bought a 12-pack, came home, had a can. I finished up the evening typing out some E-mails.

Was that Divine Inspiration?**

No, that just means that Schwepps’s subliminal advertising is working.

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

*Originally posted by js_africanus *
**Terry Pratchett asked a similar question in one of his Discworld novels. Paraphrasing him, he asked why is it that when someone’s life is saved by some outrageously improbable string of events it’s called a miracle, but when a life is taken by some outrageously improbable string of events god is never mentioned. **

I think Pratchett summed it up nicely with “Just because it’s not nice doesn’t mean it’s not miraculous”.

[Race_Bannon]

*Originally posted by Polycarp *
**Race Bannon, I think you find the difference in the freedom to choose. If I feel an impulse to do something, and believe it to be inspired by God, I will feel myself strongly called to do that something – but I do preserve my freedom to choose whether or not to do it.
**

Sorry, I’m not buying it. Earlier you said:

Quite simply, God does answer prayers – but the normal way He does this is predominantly through the decent and generous behavior of good human beings, many of whom don’t even believe in Him.

You claimed that even folks who don’t believe in God are used to answer prayers. That can’t possibly be anything but a usurpation of free will.

It’s not like God calls people like me up on the phone and says, “hey, if your feeling generous, run on over to the McDonald’s because theres a hungy guy there who’s down on his luck”. But, believe it or not, I have been known to pass out lunch money to hard-luck cases. I don’t believe it’s due to divine intervention.

The simpler explanation is that God is capricious. Some folks get their prayers answered and some don’t.

[246810]

Well, I am going to leave but I am going to say one last thing.
God made you, and he knows not only what you know, but he also knows why you know it and how you know it, and everything about your knowledge, and so much more that you cant even comprehend. So as you go on trying to debate about all these fleshly thoughts remember that it is really just foolishness. We are all sinners, but God sent Jesus Christ to die on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. Now we are forgiven. Believe me, you will have your chance to know what I am talking about. Please don’t hate me for saying this. I am speaking from my heart. Read the bible, he put it here so that we can understand who he is and why he does what he does. You know, I have never had a prayer unanswered. That is why I am here right now with the understanding that God has blessed me with, and all the love from my family, and the health that I have, and everything that I have. It is the work of God, not me, not anyone else, but God. This is something serious, not something that you can just write back with a clever comment. Accept the true understanding that God can give you, and the true love. Through Jesus.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

Boy, that was original.

[John_Mace]

246810:

“Well, I am going to leave”

Leave the SDMB entirely or just this thread?

[Doc_Nickel]

Praise Jesus! A drive-by Witless… er, witnessing!

Gosh, I’m convinced.