"Elizabeth and God" -- an atheist ponders

Now—I do not mean this to be snarky or sarcastic; I just want some religious input on something that has baffled me over the past 12 hours. All the coverage of Eliz. Smart’s rescue has had a strong religious component, possibly because she’s a Mormon. In all the print and TV coverage, I hear, “Thank God she’s back!” “God has answered our prayers!” “It’s a miracle from God!” OK, some questions:

  1. Do you believe God literally and personally intervened in her rescue? Was it because of all the intense praying? What about all those little girls who were kidnapped and prayed for but wound up raped and murdered? Was God unable or unwilling to intervene? Or was South Park right and Mormonism is the True Religion?

  2. These were very religious people who went to church regularly and prayed for each other—so why did God let Eliz. get kidnapped and held for nine months in the first place? Howcum he gets the credit for rescuing her, but not for letting her get grabbed? There’s a lot of little atheist girls (and Jews and Buddhists and Muslims) who go their whole lives without being kidnapped, so what good did the Smarts’ religiion do them?

P.S. Please don’t hand me that “He works in mysterious ways” gag—that’s just another way of saying, “I dunno.”

At the same time, someone with insight might be able to answer this one:

There are a couple of studies I know of that purport to show that when patients in the hospital are fervently prayed for (without the patient’s knowledge), they do better than other patients.

This has always seemed painfully random to me, if not completely unjust. If God is working selectively on behalf of the prayed-for group, then others are being deprived of these benefits. Should your gallbladder rupture because you weren’t fortunate enough to be in the test group? Would God permit certain people to die or suffer major complications merely to prove that He exists? Are the sinners who ramble through life drinking and whoring around without significant medical problems supposed to be the exceptions that prove the rule?

I can’t speak for all or even most Christians. I merely offer my own takes.

In my view, the purpose of being a Christian is to live a good life- NOT to “get” something from God.

I don’t think God plays an active role in most of what goes on in the world. I think He gave us a code for living, but doesn’t choose to be our policeman. He wants us to be good, but isn’t going to intervene magically to make that happen. And, for the most part, if I make choices that cause me to harm myself or others, I don’t expect God to step in an prevent me from doing that.

There are certainly many Christians who try to interpret everything that happens here on Earth as “God’s will,” but I think they’re mistaken. God wills us to live virtuous, loving lives… but He doesn’t enforce His will. Not on this Earth in this life, at any rate. When bad things happen here on Earth, they’re usually either:

  1. the predictable result of someone’s actions, or
  2. sheer dumb luck

I don’t think it was “God’s will” for Elizabeth Smart to be kidnapped, and I don’t think it was His will that she be found by the police.

This is something I’ve been wodnering for a while.
I have finally come to the conclusion that its random.
When a good thing happens, people credit it to God.
When a bad outcome occurs, well,…
I think to me it seems He doesn’t get involved with us down here.
Not that I’ve seen in my own life.

Wow! Religious people and an atheist agreeing . . . Could this be a sign of the End of the World?

If Eve is referring to comments by the family and their friends, then it’s quite understandable. The family is “into” religion. If the family had had a law enforcement background, there would be somewhat less of the religion sense and toward law enforemcent etc.

Other expressions of joy and relief such as this, may have varying
degrees of religious meaning. Thank God is not always a literal phrase for all people in all contexts and sometimes means thank goodness.

People see in events what they are predisposed to see.

According to the Skeptical Inquirer, these studies are invalid.

nah, just some religious people aren’t nutty about it all.
;)vanilla, looking up waiting for the rapture any second now…

I just saw this on the news last night. From what I remember some random woman on the street recognized the man who had kidnapped Elizabeth Smart and called the police on her husbands cell phone. The ironic thing was that the whole time she was kidnapped she was close to home. I don’t see any way that “divine intervention” can be given credit here. It isn’t like god picked up the phone and said “Yo, cops, here’s the kid” and then pointed her out with a sunbeam or some other sign of divine origin. It was just an observant woman with a cell phone.

God is also a somewhat handy reference.

I’m a Deist - not an atheist, but I don’t believe in a personal diety or one that answers prayers. But sometimes it is convienent shorthand to say “God Bless” or “I’ll keep you in my prayers.” I currently have a friend whose wife and brother are both extremely ill. A good way to show my sympathy is with words like “God Bless” and “I’ll keep you in my prayers.” He is a believer, and I don’t think introducing my own skeptism is helpful.

I have little doubt that if the Smart family is heavily religious, they are not using it this way. I’m just pointing out that not every reference to God or prayers means the person making the reference is a devout Christian.

The prayer for the sick thing seems to work like a placebo effect. If a person ibelieves* they’re being prayed for, they tend to do better. I saw one study (which I can dig for if anyone cares) in which there were four samples of patients.

1.) Some who were told that they were being prayed for and they were prayed for.

2.) Some who were told that they were being prayed for and they were not, in fact prayed for.

3.) Some who were told they were not being prayed for and they were prayed for.

4.) Some were told they were not prayed for and they weren’t prayed for.

The groups who did the best were those who believed they had been prayed for whether they were actually prayed for or not. Those who believed they were not being prayed for did about the same. Those who were prayed for secretly did no better than those who were not prayed for at all.

So actual prayer has nothing to do with it. It’s all in the mind of the patient.

My understanding, based on my mere 24 years, is this:

The center of Christianity–and arguably religion–is “thy will be done.” We’re looking to achieve a harmony between the world above by mirroring it here. While I don’t have numerous examples in front of me, a few come to mind. For example, the layout of the Egyptian pyramids in relation to the Nile River apparently mirrors the layout of the stars in Orion’s belt in relation to the Milky Way. It’s celestial imitation. The Jewish Star of David is really the intersection of two triangles–a merger of heaven and earth. And in Christianity, it’s “thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven.

The point being–heaven gets it right; with all our problems, you think we’d be doing what they do.

Enter the paradox of free will. Yes, it’d be easier if God merely manipulated our wills or forced circumstances to achieve a desired outcome. It really would. But what would be the point? I say this not to make light of the little girl’s situation, but as I understand it, there’s a matter of human souls at stake here. We do not merely want to achieve a world that looks good, but is good. Hence, our free will exists as a matter of allowing us to love God–and each other–freely.

Why? Because something freely given is so much better than that which is forced. It feels better when a kid openly shares his toys with his younger sibling, rather than when the parent forces him to do so. In the latter case, your result is a pissed-off parent, one kid who resents sharing, and another who feels that the toy is an entitlement. In the former, there’s a spirit of love animating everyone. To force the issue defeats the purpose.

That means that everyone involved in our story 1) is a child of God, and 2) has free will. This includes the admitted jerkwad who kidnapped Elizabeth. I feel bad that he was driven by whatever circumstances–including his own greed and illness–to do this. (Caveat: I feel sorrier for his victims, so by no means am I advocating an excuse.) Regardless, I’d still argue that this character had the ability to love God and neighbor by not committing this crime. It’s possible that he wore down his own resistance to sin long ago–maybe he’s overindulged in kiddie porn to the point that he can’t say no anymore, beats me. The point being–and yes, I struggle with this too–is that God respects this individual’s free will by allowing him to make his choices.

God’s will, we can safely wager, was for Elizabeth not to be kidnapped. But his will was also for this guy not to do the kidnapping–we need to understand, it’s both of them at stake, and maybe from a larger perspective, Elizabeth’s parents as well. Prayer is the desire that God’s will be done–but as I’ve said, God’s will is not just a physical outcome (Elizabeth be saved) but also our participation in God’s will (the kidnapper quit doing this). Human idiocy, greed, stupidiy, or what-have-you, unfortunately, can get in the way of God’s will.

So, as I largely see it (and I realize I’m oversimplifying here): when good things happen, I’d ascribe it to God’s intervention. And let me make clear–when people help those good things happen–your police, fire, or woman with the cell phone–they’re participating in bringing about the good, so by all means, give them the credit. But when bad things happen–or more precisely, when people do bad things like kidnapping little girls–for better or worse, God can’t interfere with their choice.

“God’s will, we can safely wager, was for Elizabeth not to be kidnapped. But his will was also for this guy not to do the kidnapping . . . God can’t interfere with their choice.”

—So what use is he?

God, Schmod. The kid got lucky.

I’m still pretty grateful for that “existence” thing…

Seriously, I’ll try to find a more satisfactory answer. Or pray that Polycarp shows up and does it for me.

Thank God for statistical likelihoods!

Real live Mormon reporting in, and what I say is “pretty much what ResIpsaL said, and some of what astorian said too.” God does not prevent bad things from happening to innocent people. Free will and so on, and definitely “I dunno.”

Why does God get the credit here? Because for many religious people, Mormons included, God gets the credit for everything good that happens. We get everything from him, owe him everything–breath, health, food, shelter, intellect, and so on. He also gets the credit for some of what Mormons call ‘trials and tribulations’ (that is, bad stuff, esp. the bad stuff that isn’t anyone else’s fault)–it’s just that we have a harder time being grateful for them because we don’t like being uncomfortable. But we also believe that certain kinds of growth come only through pain, and that’s what we’re here on Earth for; to grow.

I happen to believe that prayer does have efficiacy, but you don’t always get the answer you want. Sometimes the answer is yes, sometimes it’s no, and sometimes it’s something completely different. Prayer (as noted previously many times on this board) is not just asking for what you want; it’s also being grateful for what you have, bringing yourself into line with God’s will, and communication with your Father in Heaven.

So, yes, Mormonism is the True Religion (IMO :)), but Elizabeth Smart’s return does not prove that in any way. We would certainly prefer that all lost children could return to their families. I don’t know why she came back, while others didn’t.

Note: I brought up the question of prayer and patient outcome not to debate whether there’s a true effect of prayer. Rather it was to ask that if you believe there’s an effect, what does that say about your belief system?

:smiley:

In all seriousness, I saw Larry King Live last night and he had John Walsh and Mark Klaas as his guests (Mark Klaas’s daughter Polly was abducted from their home and murdered in '93). They came on right after the Smart family’s news conference. Mark Klaas’s comment on the events of yesterday was that

I agree totally. To quote someone I am rather fond of “Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in human history in a particular way.”

Mars