Here is a page that will try to explain this more for you.
And here is another, non-Cherokee native voice on the subject from Dr. Kim TallBear.
Here is a link to the International Society of Genetic Genealogy showing even if those markers they use weren’t just specific to Central America, which isn’t known, that there is only a 50% of a recent match if her sample was phased, which it was not.
Here is a cite related to “Crania Americana” and another reason Natives are suspicious of pseudoscience and racism.
You are well quoted above as playing the token game, you could concede or justify your claims.
As I doubt you will read those cites, here is some from Dr. Kim TallBear’s tweets.
Unfortunately she is trying to put food on her table and restricts some information to her book. But you keep sidestepping the issue here, which is with her claiming specific heritage and resorting to the modern form of scientific racism to justify it.
If we as a country hadn’t been assholes and actively try to kill off native Americans in the past and in Warrens present her claims wouldn’t make anyone bat their eyes. The more you keep trying to ignore the cultural cleansing and actual genocide committed against these people the more I have to keep repeating myself.
It is those evil actions by our country that make this a real issue. Address that very real and specific context and we can move forward, ignore them and I only have your (to me) morally repugnant suggestion above that racial equality doesn’t matter as long as we win, and that minorities are just tools for that goal.
It makes it a real thing but “real isues” politically are things a substantial number of people care about. Nobody really gives a shit that genetics can’t prove tribal membership. Also, TallBear isn’t just a non-Cherokee she is frigging Canadian. Double plus “who gives a crap” for American voters.
Most think racism remains a major problem and is getting worse and they are the not only the largest voter base we have to tap, they are the only source if you decide to dehumanize people of color.
Obviously people of color aren’t a unified group, but not many individuals have to switch sides or choose not to vote for it to be important.
Sure in practice they may be just as racist as my Gen X generation, but they will be receptive to factual evidence to affect their vote. With low turnout the silent generation and boomers will turn out more and they are more racist and will tend to side with Trump.
Like I said, a simple media campaign to dispel the myths DNA companies have been selling to improve sales would invoke the sadness and concern related to racial justice.
Even Kellyanne Conway abandons this BS when it is no longer convenient.
In a side note, this may be the only factually correct claim I have ever heard out of Kellyanne Conway.
Of course, many of these super anti-racist millennials might not jump behind the Cherokee Nation that so recently tried to kick their slave’s descendants out. Tu qoque, you say? My goodness, millennials would never commit a logical fallacy, would they?
The reason there is a more finely calibrated models of European origin is that the researchers generating these models have been able to collect more European samples than they have native American samples. It is easy to go to Germany and collect 1,000 German DNA from among the population of 82 Million Germans there. It is less easy to go to the Cherokee tribes and collect 1,000 Cherokee samples from a population that consists of just 300,000 people spread out in various communities. This isn’t a matter of racism its a matter of logistics.
If you only have a handful of samples from each tribe there is no way you are ever going to be able to make a remotely reliable test. So the best you can hope for is to look within a larger population for markers that seem to be present in those whose ancestors were likely in the America’s pre 1942, but which are not found among those with no association with. This gives you a much larger population from which to derive a classifier, but unfortunately ends up lumping them all in together. But again this isn’t because we think all those Indians are the same, its just that in order to get enough samples to define a group we need to expand the class. Since there is a larger population with native american ancestry in south america, any test the produce is likely to be biased in the direction of being more representative of south American tribes. Which will probably mean that it will probably underestimate the proportion of native American ancestry in a person who has a mixture of races including North American Native American such as Warren proports to be.
As for the Chihuahua having native American ancestry, that article seemed to be directed at a specific genetic test that purported to be able to distinguish among different tribes, but seemed fraudulent. Given the difficulty discussed above in generating such a specific test its claims are indeed probably crap. But unless Warren used that exact test I’m not sure how its relevant.
Again Warren’s main crimes appear to be,
Believing her mother
Having pride in her heritage
Not fully understanding the cultural appropriation ramifications of expressing that pride until it was made clear to her (at which point she apologized)
Standing up to a racist bully who was denigrating her for expressing that pride.
Note being a sufficient expert in the ins and outs of genetics to immediately reject purported accuracy of a ancestry test.
Which somehow adds up to her being a racist who hates the Cherokee people and should be shunned by society.
Yeah, the tribes get to decide who is a member of their tribe. Great. But they can and do ignore bloodlines, cutting out members of the tribe due to tribal politics or the fact that they want as bigger cut of casino profits.
If you’re every bit as “fillinnameoftribehere” as another member, but they kicked you out as the cadre wants twice as much cash in their monthly stipend, does that make you not a native American at all?
No, you get to decide if you care to identify as Black or Hispanic, etc. Just you, no one else- except perhaps a coroner trying to ID your remains.
Yes, DNA test are vague and no specific.
But tribal laws are based not upon genetics, but politics. You can be a member of certain tribes by “adoption” without having a drop of NA blood. Or the tribe elders can vote to exclude you as they want more money from the casino or because they don’t like you. So you can be
1a full blooded whatever and not legally be a member of a tribe, or
2 have no NA blood at all, and also be a member of a tribe. Or
3.You can also be full NA, but the Government hasn’t recognized your tribe.
So what you seem to be claiming is that person #1 is a Native American, but #2 & #3 are not?:dubious:
She is not, nor ever has, claimed any benefits or actually said she is a legal member of any tribe. Hundreds of thousands of Americans are part NA and not a LEGAL member of any tribe.
I think you are missing the point, there is no need to support the Cherokee Nation, although I assume that trying to out Trump Trumpisms will result in that whataboutery response.
Denying the ethnic and cultural differences and thus erasing the identities of those who cannot choose doesn’t depend on that at all. Under your model, Mexicans, Colombians, Brazilians, Seminoles, Nez Perce, Crow or any of the 100’s of tribes aren’t allowed their identity or to control membership.
Cuz to Elizabeth Warren (or her claims) they are all Negros^H^H^H^H^HIndians to her!!! Native people may identify as Native American, Indian, American Indian, Indigenous, or their tribal names, but it is their choice, not some random white geneticist or senator.
If you have a hard time imagining this from their point of view, try walking up to some local families of Italian or Sicilian decent and telling them that they are Negroid because of the Moorish invasions. Let me know how much they appreciate that won’t ya?
Yes? And so? Do you need to apologize to anyone who sez they are offended? She never made any claims she was a legal member of their tribe. They dont speak for all NAtive Americans not even all Cherokee.
I think the claim of being Cherokee in the cookbook, when taken together with everything else, (e.g. listing herself as “minority” in a hiring directory, being touted as a faculty member “of color” (gee, where did they get that idea?), etc.) definitely lends credibility in my mind that she presented herself this way, that presenting herself as Native American (specifically Cherokee) was more likely than not a thing that she did.
And it was all baloney. Which, it wouldn’t be such a big deal if she had just said, “I guess I was wrong all these years. Based on my family stories I believed I was Native American, but I guess I’m not.” But she didn’t do that. She instead touted her DNA test as proof that she’s every bit the Native American she always said she was. And she’s not.
There is no social cost for white americans being racist against native peoples right now, but don’t take that comment out of context. That was related to a claim she had apologized, which she hasn’t.
But yes in general to apologize about insulting someone you typically have to apologize to the people you insulted, and as that is all the Cherokee Nation was asking for it was a pretty simple task for her to do, and their requests are why Trumps researchers found this info.
There is no one Native American culture, 567 federally recognized Indian nations across the United States with more cultural and language diversity than in Europe. If you can’t get why you can’t apologize to a non-culture Native American, and doing so when you claimed connection to a single group (fyi her family said that the Delaware side merged with the Cherokee Nation) perhaps this link will help you start to understand how diverse of a group of people are lumped in this racist category.
How convenient that you ignore her political ad from the 2012 campaign because it is on youtube, and hand wave away pages of cites. Sorry but I can’t exactly hand you a VHS tape of it.
It looks like you have built quite the comfy confirmation bias nest for yourself there, hopefully it makes you feel safe.
The Cherokee Nation kinda sounds like grandstanding racist assholes. Don’t think they specifically deserve an apology just because they make a big show of being offended by something that didn’t really happen. If she had claimed membership to their tribe, they would have special standing to be offended. As it stands, they don’t. So, if they won’t accept Warren’s generalized statements to not be claiming anything other family heritage, fuck em.
You know if you didn’t dismiss when people point you at websites about logical fallacies, perhaps you would learn a few things. Especially in this type of situation where there is absolutely zero possibility we can ever understand another persons experiences.
I get you are trying to take the heat off of your previous statements and probably can’t defend your argument, but trying to shift the focus back the tribe as not being perfect doesn’t remove the larger impact of racist policies against Native individuals.
I seriously believe you are far smarter and stronger to get stuck at this stage. A minority group not being completely sin free is not justification to continue the oppression you are are suggesting committing. It is red herring to expect people to be perfect before you will treat them like like equals. Especially with the way we also treat people with African lineages.
The ironic thing, white fragility is directly related to perceived attacks on white identity, this is quite similar to self identity of self that Elizabeth Warren actions and your suggestions that we shouldn’t care about and are willing to sacrifice for your own selfish desires.
Quite building a blame others for not being perfect models and falling short of your expectations as a qualifier for treating them as equals. As you ducked my offer to let you to even invent a word to describe the concept of “prejudice plus power” we can’t even have a conversation. Because you are following the same protective path into a safe hole that people have when us whites are confronted with institutionalized racism and other groups.
You are better than this, but just deal with the fact that the conversation will start out uncomfortable and that you will like your self better in the end.
As all individuals and groups of minorities are made up of…humans, none of them are perfect. That fact doesn’t excuse addressing the racist power imbalance that you have a unique ability to help short circuit. Don’t sell yourself short by justifying that inequality because it is uncomfortable to talk about. None of us will ever be color blind, and the only reason to fill guilty for being born white should be if you decide to avoid discomfort by allowing others to suffer greatly merely due to their race.
Doing nothing is the evil choice and I have a feeling you are far better of a human being than to let that happen.