Are there any examples of women who have been biologically recognized as women stating they now identify as a transwoman? If Ellen Page, for example, had gone public stating that she now wanted to be identified as a transwoman and referred to as her/she, don’t you feel many people would have found this unusual? I think she might have been accused of transgender appropriation in such a case.
Why are you trying so hard to turn this into some sort of gotcha?
Sure, being bisexual is a real thing. But being gay and being straight are also real things.
If it turns out that Emma Portner is bisexual and is as happy being married to Elliot as she was being married to Ellen, then I’m glad things will work out for the two of them (or at least have a better chance of working out for them). But I think it’s wrong to assume this is the case.
Portner married a woman. Despite what’s been claimed in this thread, that is more than zero evidence that Portner is a lesbian.
Page has always been identified as a woman. He now says he is trans, has a man’s name, and asks to be referred to with male pronouns. Despite what’s been claimed in this thread, that is more than zero evidence that Page now identifies as a man.
Finally despite what’s been claimed in this thread, there is more than zero evidence that a marriage between somebody who is openly a lesbian and somebody who is openly a man is a marriage that is going to have some strain on it.
I’m not saying I know everything. But there is more than zero evidence I know more than some people in this thread do.
Because there are some people in this thread who are claiming to be certain of things they have no reason to be certain about.
Ok, good luck bro.
It’s taking longer than we thought.
…its okay not to understand what Elliot’s statement actually meant. But to double down on this in this thread is really starting to get embarrassing.
I’ve conceded that Page may (or may not) identify as a trans man. I’ve stated that Page hasn’t identified as a trans man and its presumptuous to make that assumption. You can be non-binary and prefer “he” or “she” or “they” or “he/they” and none of these are incorrect.
What there is zero evidence for in this thread is that this matters in the relationship between Page and Portner. Because that was your original point, was it not?
Page hasn’t identified themselves as a man. Lesbian is a label you have chosen for Portner and may (or may not be) the right label Portner would use for herself right now. There is zero evidence that there is strain on the marriage and it is distasteful to even speculate about it in a thread that should be a celebration.
Are you talking about yourself?
Call me a silly old sentimental goose, but I think it’s perfectly reasonable to default to assuming that a married couple that have not announced plans to separate are happy with staying married to each other.
Yes, that assumption will sometimes eventually turn out to be wrong, but I think it makes more sense than trying to second-guess the relationship decisions of total strangers based on superficial information about their gender identity or sexual orientation or whatnot.
Interestingly, I was just reading about the 70-year marriage of Jan Morris (born James Morris) and Elizabeth Tuckniss, which finally ended with Morris’s death just last month at age 94, but which had been officially interrupted by a divorce mandated by UK laws after Morris had sex reassignment surgery in the 1970s, since same-sex marriage wasn’t permitted at that time.
Here’s wishing Page and Portner equally long and happy life and love, together if they so choose.
Why shouldn’t a transgender man be allowed to portray a cisgender woman, particularly when he has already been playing that role for years?
I’d like to remind everyone that this is cafe society, and personal attacks are not allowed. Mods are discussing if any other action is needed. But please, be kind to each other.
I agree 100 percent.
I was thinking Elliot’s comfort level in playing a cis woman, not the production company/director(s) allowing it. It is quite possible both are 100% fine with it, but it could still effect season 3 story lines in some way (or it could not).
Brian
You don’t marry someone just because you’re attracted to their gender. I mean, there are over three billion people in the world of the gender I’m attracted to, but I have no interest in marrying the vast majority of them. You marry someone because you’re attracted to that one specific person. And Emma Portner was apparently attracted to the one specific person El Page, formerly known as Ellen, now Elliot. Who is still that same specific person.
For comparison, if you ask most twentysomethings if they’re romantically attracted to 75-year-olds, most of them will tell you no. They get married to other twentysomethings. But then, as time goes on, they find themselves married to thirtysomethings and fortysomethings and eventually seventysomethings. And, in many cases, remain married to them. Because they’re still the same person they married.
Fwiw, I do know one woman who broke up with her partner in large part because he came out as… not cis, I guess. She was very supportive, and they are still friendly, but she wasn’t comfortable dating someone who presented as a woman. I also know people who have stayed together. Not knowing these people personally, I honestly have no opinion as to how likely they are to stay married. I wish them happiness, whatever they decide.
I was a little impressed at how fast the Wikipedia and IMDB entries were updated.
On the other hand, one of the longer term Dopers (alas, she left due to reasons I agree with) is still happily married to the woman she married prior to coming out trans. Not all the marriages dissolve.
Because that sort of a change in an individual can put an enormous stress on a marriage if the other spouse wasn’t already clued in, and the marriage may not survive.
For the former Doper I mentioned, her spouse knew of her gender issues prior to the marriage so it didn’t come as a surprise and a shock. If a spouse isn’t clued in, well, that doesn’t always end well.
Yes, that’s an issue. On the other hand, some people discover that they are love in with the person and not a particular presentation of that person. Or maybe the spouse is actually bisexual and not either homo/heterosexual.
Mostly, though, I feel it’s something for the couple to work out between themselves, or to decide to part ways.
^ This. We really don’t know the details between them. As I said, with the couple I know from here the trans spouse came out to her prospective wife before they got married, so the wife knew all along. Elliot may have know himself to be trans for years but didn’t come out publicly until now. Elliot may have cautioned Emma that he could move to transitioning in the future. We don’t know. And actually, we shouldn’t know because that strikes me as a very private conversation between two people.
We don’t know why Elliot came out at this point, either. Physically transitioning can be a deal killer for any profession, but even more so for acting. He might have wanted to wait until he was financially secure enough to not have to worry about working in the future. It might be some other reason. We don’t know that, either, and unless Elliot decides to share that with us we will never know and, again, we aren’t entitled to know such private things about someone unless that person wants to share them.
As others have noted, Page has not talked about physically transitioning. Maybe he will, maybe he won’t. Not every person with gender issues does so. Eddie Izzard, for example, who has spoken about being gender-fluid. Izzard has dressed in a very feminine way at times, but has still taken roles where the character is very much a man/male. It would not surprise me if Page does not physically transition and continues to play female roles. It would not surprise me if Page did transition and start playing male roles… other than the surprise that he would be hired in an industry that is not terribly enlightened.
Chaz Bono?
I had heard Morris’s life, long term partnership, and recent death, discussed on the radio the other day and also thought of it on seeing this discussion.
It seems to me that there are two main possibilities - either the individual has shared this huge aspect of who they are with their spouse, from before getting married, or they have kept that a secret.
If the former then coming out, transitioning, or not, they are likely to remain committed to each other as it is no surprise and part of the person who they love and chose to be with, to support, and grow old together with. If the latter then keeping it a secret will doom the partnership as well, to mutual unhappiness and likely dissolution. Going public, transitioning, neither will be likely to change those outcomes.
If I had to WAG from Portner’s public statement it would be the former in this case.
Well said.
In the Variety article, Elliot describes himself as non-binary.
Page uses both he/him and they/them pronouns, and describes himself as transgender and non-binary, meaning that his gender identity is neither man nor woman.
I wish Mr. Page well, but I’m still not forgiving Vanya for killing Pogo.
No, Chaz is a transman.
I have no problem at all referring to a person however they wish to be addressed, and applauded any person making the changes they need to be happy and comfortable in their life. It may be my age, but I admit that I completely do not understand nonbinary genders. Fortunately my understanding is not required for their happiness, or my ability to respect their choices. I wish him the best and hope he’s happy.