I must have missed the part where you were there.
This one hasn’t been addressed yet. I’m with you on your definition on emotional blackmail and think it’s pretty damn unforgivable. But I also think it’s a grave insult. In fact, I would consider a unwarranted accusation to be emotional blackmail itself: Give in or I’ll (try to) make you feel bad for the way you’re arguing.
I can see how a truly manipulative person would escalate the emotional blackmail by threatening to end the friendship, but, from a truly honest person, a reconsideration of the friendship also seems a good response.
And another big part of being a grownup is being able to recognize when to stand up for yourself. A simple “Fuck you, you’re hurting me. Stop it” also goes a long way. From the OP it isn’t clear at all which situation applies here.
I have to ask: where did you get the impression that jackdavinci didnt’ realize that a reciprocal apology was expected? He just didn’t go along with those expectations.
I don’t know anyone who would respond positively to being told “Fuck you”.
Maybe your friends are different than mine.
When my friends do something that upset me, I tell them in an adult fashion, and vice-versa. That’s our idea of standing up for ourselves. We are able to do it without degrading the other person or treating them in a demeaning manner.
Most misunderstandings are cleared up promptly by doing this, and sometimes by offering an apology. In 30+ years, I have only had one friendship end.
I value my friends and my friendships, and I wouldn’t dream of treating any of my relationships with such disrespect.
{old geezer soapbox}
IM is perfectly fine for somethings. Conversations of this intensity/level are not one of them. Hell, even a phone I think is inappropriate for this.
This conversation should be done in person.
{/old geezer soapbox}
I’m not sure what questioning the value I put in friendship has to do with anything. The thread is about jackdavinci’s friend who, if his assesment is of emotional blackmail is correct, treated him without any respect at all, and not for the first time.
I agree with you that it’s not clear at all whether she is treating him with such disrespect. I’m left with the feeling that jack is trying to avoid having to have to apologize while he should. Or else this might be a situation where he should tell her that her apologies were unnecessary as well. But I’m pretty sure that if he is correct about the emotional blackmail that she would have responded rather negatively (turn down the respect another notch) to an apology.
I don’t mean to crap on your thread but I found just reading the back story of the incident exhausting.
This nonsense -from both of you- about “You insulted me” “No, I didn’t, get over it” “I will if you say sorry” “I won’t and you can’t make me” and blah, blah, blah seems more appropriately suited to the playground.
And while I wouldn’t ordinarily disrespect another poster just for the fun of it, the fact that you can’t even recall the specific original disagreement that precipitated the whole affair speaks volumes on you and your friends’ collective maturity level and your choice of creative outlets for time waste management.
You two seem perfect for each other.
And really -no offense.
It is ALWAYS appropriate to say to a friend “I’m sorry you were hurt by what I said” if they say they were hurt by what you said.
If you have to say this all the damn time, you have incompatible styles for friendship - she should find more considerate people, you should be friends with people with thicker skins.
She said she expected an apology. He said that he also expected an apology, acknowledging her expectation, and giving no indication that he was not going to behave consistent with her expectation. Quoting “She said she expected an apology, and I said so did I.” The “so did I” is a statement that builds on the previous one and is easy to interpret as implying acceptance. Based on his later comment, it sounds like not apologizing was actually more important to him than receiving an apology. That is a legitimate position to hold, but it just didn’t come out that way, and things went downhill from there. I do think **Dangerosa **gives a great example of the kind of apology one can be generous with among friends.
Also, seconding blinkingduck trying to handle emotional conversations by email or IM is a really bad idea. You are flying blind without facial expression or tone of voice and creating a potentially permanent and public record of the conflict. At least pick up the phone, and preferably meet in person, any time you are trying to resolve interpersonal conflict. Postpone the conversation if necessary. It will save time and angst.
Heh. It was exhausting for me too. Certainly there was immaturity on both our parts. But I was willing to chalk it up to a misunderstanding and move on. She wouldn’t let it go. I feel like she started it, and wouldn’t let it end, but then I could have handled myself better too. But that’s why I didn’t want to get into a ‘he said she said’ here. I just wanted to get a better idea of what EB means so I could deal with that aspect of the argument.
This is good advice, and should for me at least, include the phone. Next time I’ll just say that “this is a serious topic and I’d rather discuss it in person”.
Agree with this.
If you had intended to hurt her feelings, I’d say you were never her friend to begin with. However, people who care about each other hurt each other unintentionally all the time. You had a bad day, you weren’t paying attention and said something thoughtless, you miscommunicate, misinterpret each other, whatever.
Thing is, if you care about someone, her feelings should matter to you too. Whether what you did was “right” or “wrong” isn’t relevant here, if you still hurt her feelings.
If a friend came up to me and said “When you did X, it really hurt my feelings,” because I care about that person, my natural response would be: “I didn’t realize I’d hurt you. I didn’t mean to, and I’m sorry. [It won’t happen again (OR) when I did X I meant Y and (continue conversation about aligning our mutual expectations and considerations around whatever X was).]”
She should absolutely tell you what specifically “X” was, though. You can’t change it or discuss it in any way if you don’t know what it is.
ugh jack, I’ve gone through the same thing, multiple times, with an ex of mine, except from the opposite end of the spectrum.
what will happen is he’ll say something he sees as an offhand comment with no particular meaning but, for some reason, it will strike me as insensitive (at best) or mildly insulting "(at worst). Sometimes it will be something about an ex girlfriend of his. A couple times it was about our sex life. ETC. At first I’m surprised, then I wonder if he meant it in a bad way, and then I realize that he didn’t mean it, but that it still bothered me. The knowing he didn’t mean it doesn’t really do much to make me feel better, because it’s also disturbing that he could say something that bothers me and not even know it.
So then I decide he’s no mindreader and that, if I ever want the relationship to work, I should be open about what bothers me and what doesn’t, the assumption being: if he knows that something particular bothers me, he’ll make an effort not to do it. Simple.
So I say, “when you said X, it really bothered me b/c of Y”. He’ll say, “Well, that’s all you, because what I said was simply X and it doesn’t mean anything.” And I’ll say, well, I know you didn’t MEAN anything by it, and maybe I’m just sensitive about Y, but it bothered me you said X and I wish you wouldn’t say X in the future."
What I WANT to hear is just acknowledgment that he did something I didn’t like and that he’ll try not to do it in the future. Like, that he understands. And that he feels bad that he inadvertently bothered me.
But no, it’s never that simple. Just as in your case, he’d rather be RIGHT than help me feel better. He’ll spend more time insisting on how he didn’t mean anything, in defensive mode, than offer any concern about my feelings. “Well, you’re wrong, because I didn’t mean X, so you shouldn’t feel bothered and, if you do, it’s your own damn fault. I didn’t do anything to deserve this! I just said X!”
Obviously, you’d rather feel RIGHT than have her feel better. Because god forbid you say, “oh, I’m sorry I upset you”, to set everything OK. Because that would imply that you MAY have been wrong. You’re selfish, it’s not emotional manipulation, and if you cared a whit about her as opposed to just caring about who is right and who is wrong, you would meet the girl in a coffee shop and say just that. She’s right. Who needs to be friends with someone who cares about being right more than being kind?
God yes. I had the same situation with my ex, and in fact we had a row along these lines last night - he said something I thought was inconsiderate and hurtful, I called him on it, he said I was going on about it…:rolleyes: People don’t ‘go on’ about something if they think it’s been resolved, and it’s also good manners if someone says you hurt them to say sorry. Of course you can also add that it wasn’t intentional, and that perhaps the other person is being oversensitive, but give and take is part of friendships and relationships. Your friend was hurt and told you, and apologised for her part in the disagreement - I think you should have sucked up your ‘but I have nothing to apologise for’ feeling and apologised back. Like with my ex, insisting you did nothing wrong when maybe you didn’t mean to but the other person is clearly upset, just fuels the situation and makes the other person feel resentful. And so it will be brought up again, because the person who was hurt doesn’t feel it was resolved, and the first person will flip about why they can’t just drop it already…
Simple action - if you upset someone, however inadvertantly, you apologise. No-one has an excuse to be oversensitive and whiny either, but those terms mean different things to different people. If someone’s upset, they’re upset.
I agree with this, and that jack should be able to apologize for inadvertantly hurting her feelings. Especially if there’s no history of this sort of thing with them. However, I also think his friend should be able to articulate what he did that hurt her. This discussion can come after the apology, but to not give him a clear picture of what part of his behavior hurt her is bullshit.
I agree with this… with one caveat!
I’ve had friends who were incredibly sensitive to every perceived slight. For example, they’d ask me to review something (a resume, cover letter, etc.) and then take it personally when I made comments, or I’d disagree with their opinion on a movie or book and they’d assume I was disrespecting them as a person. Those kinds of friends can be exhausting, and you feel like you’re always walking on egg shells around them.
If the OP’s friend is like that (takes offense where most people wouldn’t), then I’d agree that the problem is hers and he owes her no apology.
However, if it’s just one of those things that happens between friends, then you should feel bad for hurting her feelings and should apologize.
This is why I think the conversation about aligning expectations is important. If someone is always taking things the wrong way you need to have a conversation about it – either one person is constantly being oversensitive, or the other is constantly being insensitive. You can’t figure out which if you don’t talk openly about it. And yes, it’s entirely possible to discover in the course of this conversation that you simply do not work well as friends. That’s okay, and I’d say it’s better to learn that having a calm discussion than by constantly pissing each other off to the point of growing resentment and ultimately laying down ultimatums.
More likely though, if you both can be grown up about it, is you can find a middle ground to work with – one keeps in mind that off-hand comments can hurt even when not intended to, so is mindful how he says things, and the other keeps in mind that sometimes things just come out wrong and is mindful that taking it personally may not really be the appropriate response.