Employment reference question

Looks like it’s a busy week for us Doper job-hunters. Hope you don’t mind another question.

How do people evaluate references? Are references coming from people with fancy titles better than those with less fancy titles but who know my work better? I’ve heard it’s classless to give a poor reference - do people do this?

Here’s my situation: my most recent boss is

  • relatively well-known in the industry, and personally known to a number of people I have applied for jobs to
  • a complete jackass
  • about to have his reputation severely tarnished (I have almost nothing to do with this, I’m just in contact with those in the know)

Should I use him as a reference? Most people (probably) don’t know that he’s a jackass and would likely be impressed by his position, and news of his tarnishing may not reach them. I don’t expect his jackass-ness would extend to giving me a bad reference, which I know he doesn’t think I deserve. But really, with known jackasses, you can never be too sure.

It should also be noted that the work I did for him was so insignificant (due in large part to his jackass-ness) that it’s not even going on my resume.

I don’t really know, having never been in a position to hire someone, but I would think that for a professional reference, you’d want to list someone you’d had more extensive work experience with. If someone bypassed people they’d worked with a lot in favor of someone they’d only done a tiny little thing that didn’t even make it onto the resume, I’d wonder why. My first thought would be that the people who’d worked with extensively wouldn’t have very good things to say about them, so they had to find someone who barely knew them to get a good reference.

I know that for my vet school applications, my advisor told me I wanted people who knew me well, had worked with me a lot, and would give me glowing recommendations. That’s the standard I’ve always tried to hold to for job references.

Most employers prefer that you know your reference for a year or longer, and while I can’t be sure, it doesn’ sound like you’ve known your most recent boss for that long, so there’s one reason not to use him. This isn’t a hard and fast rule, as i’ve known two of the four reference I use for less time than that, and got a job fairly quickly, but it’s a good guideline if you can stick with it.

As long as you have at least three good references without him, I wouldn’t use him as a reference. You sound unsure about him, and to me, that’s the best reason not to use him. You should only use references you are certain will give you both a fair and favorable opinion of you.

For me at least, I contact references only after the decision has been made to hire the person. References serve two purposes:
a) they validate (or invalidate) the hire. I.e. only if the reference said “He sucks! don’t do it!” would I change my mind on the hire. For what it’s worth, of the hundreds of peopole I’ve done over the years, I’ve never backed out once I got to the point of checking references. For me at least, a reference check is more of a warm fuzzy kind of thing that’s there to give you more confidence you’ve made the right choice.
b) they tell me some of the things I should watch out for when working with this new person. These are usually very subtle, as it’s rare that someone will say much bad about a candidate.

My advice is to pick references who have known you and worked with you for longer, and who are likely to say good things about you. Having a boss for a reference is good, but it’s not critical.

ugh. I originally said “hires I’ve done”, and intended to change it to “people I’ve hired”. I haven’t really “done hundreds of people” over the years, in any context you might imagine.

I try to pick references that know my work and whose opinion I respect, i.e., a lawyer who knows that I think logically and always consider the end-game, an architect who is also a firm partner and who knows my technical/contractual expertise, and a former boss who knows my work habits.

Many companies don’t allow managers to give references for their employees or anyone else in the company, good or bad. So, no one will think twice if a boss is not listed. (School references are okay.)

For the OP, the only thing people would care about is if the reference seems like a good judge of people. His reputation being tarnished should not matter. I’d worry more about a reference that said you were doing a good job based on a few weeks of contact. I’d wonder why you didn’t get a reference from someone who knew you better.

I’ve checked references, especially from people I know in the industry, before making a decision.

I noticed your location is Canukistan (Canada?) so things may be different. But from a US HR perspective, a resume wouldn’t usually include any people named as references. It is usually most effective for the resume to list all companies in chronological order, perhaps with general company contact information.

When you get to the stage where you complete an application, that’s where the rubber meets the road for references. You are usually signing a statement giving permission to contact them. Almost any application will want complete information on previous supervisors. This is not so much to learn about your work. As mentioned earlier, they are often instructed to give only minimal information anyway. But it shows due diligence to follow up with these people, especially in case you’re lying “No, cowgirl wasn’t chief executive ranchhand here at the Bar-E for the past 10 years…”

Some applications will have space for additional professional references. This is where you focus on people who know your work and would help you land the job. On the other hand, HR may not weight these very highly, since they know you picked people, and would you list someone who was going to say something bad?

You also have the option of offering, say, 3 professional references on a separate sheet to supplement your resume or application.

Good luck in your job search.

My company prohibits all employees from giving references for coworkers. Two former employees have agreed to give me references, but one of them left the company almost a year ago and the other worked there for only 10 months. I don’t know how much weight their recommendations will carry.

Is anyone else having this problem?

As mentioned, it may be different in Canada. However, here in the U.S. I’ve never had someone give their current boss as a reference. Mostly because the current boss doesn’t know they’re looking for another job. HR will always ask an applicant if it’s okay to contact their current boss once they receive an offer. However, they’ve never actually contacted them. So if you’re still working for this guy, no one will bat an eye if you don’t give his name as a reference.

Usually people will give three references that we only check once we have decided to give them an offer. Again as mentioned, the reference is mostly just a disaster check: we’ve already decided we want the person; we just want to make sure we don’t hear someone on the other end of the phone scream in terror when we mention the applicant’s name.

Most of our applicants will give the names of a co worker they’ve had a lot of experience working with, the HR person at their current company (who verifies employment, position, and salary), and someone who as worked with them in a supervisory capacity. That last one can be difficult for someone who has worked for the same boss for a while. In those cases, rather than giving a really outdated reference (e.g. a boss they had 5 years ago), they’ll give someone who was a team leader on one of their projects.

Your most recent boss’s reputation shouldn’t reflect badly on you. If they have to speak to your current boss, give them the names of several other people who have good reputations (in addition to your boss). Those people should be enough to confirm that you aren’t tarnished by his mistakes.

Technically, we’re not really supposed to give out references for our co workers. However, as long as the person never reported to you, management doesn’t really care all that much, so we still do it. If that person has reported to you in the past, you’re only allowed to tell the caller the person’s title and dates of employment. We’re not even allowed to say why the person left or give out salary information. If the caller asks about those things, we need to refer them to HR.

ladybug, we’ve had applicants in your situation. Pretty much we ask them for whatever references they can provide. Some give us the names of any former co workers they can (even if they didn’t work with them all that long) and also names of people outside of work who can give us information about their work ethic and character (like someone who worked with them on volunteer projects, etc.) One guy gave us the name of his rowing coach, and that was fine too. They also give us the name of the HR person who verifies the policy and the vital stats (employment dates, position, salary). It’s pretty common, so we understand.

I will add that the hiring managers never call the references. Only HR is allowed to do that. What the references say isn’t really a factor in our decision process except as a disaster check anyway.

Thanks, Maddy. :slight_smile: I’m good friends with one of my former coworkers from a previous job, and we always give references for each other. If I add my company’s HR person to the list that’ll give me four references. That should be enough for now.