Enterprise E² [spoilers]

I was expecting more in the way of discussion about the possible paradox. For instance, why didn’t convincing (what I’ll call for the sake of discussion) Archer’s Enterprise not to do the same thing, result in Lorien’s Enterprise never having existed? How about during the Enterprise-Enterprise combat – if Lorien’s Enterprise had destroyed Archer’s Enterprise, what would have become of Lorien’s Enterprise? On a smaller scale, what if he destroyed something they couldn’t replace? What if he had killed T’Pol, would the captain suddenly change? How about T’Pol meeting herself – wouldn’t the older one remember having the conversation from the other point of view?

I had another idea, too, about what happened. I was thinking of the TNG episodes with the two Rikers. Perhaps the corridor somehow duplicated the ships and sent one copy back in time – and that happened even with the improvements. If that were the case, I wouldn’t have as much of a problem with the fact that Archer’s Enterprise still benefited from the help of and remembered Lorien’s Enterprise.

Of course, that’s just idle speculation. Since they didn’t set it up that way, didn’t make the suggestion during the show, and didn’t address many of the other paradoxes, I don’t think the writers were even thinking about all the consequences at all.

On an unrelated note: when Reed mentioned that he never had children, I was more than half expecting that he would find that he had died heroically soon after the time trip. Perhaps it’s more interesting that this wasn’t the case.

Good stuff.

By favorite part was Reed finding out he lost out on the mate numbers crunch. Then just as they are about to cut away he invites the cute crew member to eat with him. Nice!

Well, I won’t get to see it for a bit. So, a bit of peripheral stuff.

Jammer liked both Damage and the Forgotten.

Andromeda was unusually good this week. It had a plot. Not a good one, and it was a total cop-out at the end, but that’s still above average. :wink:

Degra : “Captain. You’re early.”

Great line.

NET, what I got out of it was that by coming to QE*, EBE** had already changed/fulfilled the timeline, so no paradox.

No branching even, because the events that led to the “creation” of EBE happened only to them and not to QE. The wormhole remains the only constant between the two ships. Which is why the old T’Pol would have no reccollection of meeting herself when she was young T’Pol because that hadn’t happened to old T’Pol, only to QE’s young T’Pol.

This may be circular reasoning, but it seems to fit what we actually saw.

I think the obvious twist ending would’ve been like the DS9 ep, so I’m glad they left the options for continued existance open.
*Quantum’s Enterprise

**Elf Boy’s Enterprise

[Unused lines mode]Archer: “Not as early as I almost was…” [/ulm]

You know, now that you mention it, he does look something like James Buchanan!

No, no, that would’ve ruined the effect. Archer’s reaction to Degra’s line was perfect as it was.

I liked the episode. There are scientific and social-science issues that don’t work, but I overlook that (all the time) for a story that shows me something interesting about the characters. I like the fact that this wasn’t a Reset Button episode! Charater development can stay!

I loved the mess-hall scene and wish there was more of that. I now want to think of Mayweather as a quiet guy who likes a spicey relationship; Hoshi as liking to make her own future; and Reed as gay :slight_smile: No, Reed I think got the greatest chance. He got to see that the course he is on is Not going to give him a relationship, and he wants one. Inviting that woman over is him changing his future. Good stuff.

Old-T’Pol was played well in her scene with herself. I got her coming to terms with her own emotions but felt her still being Vulcan too. Archer, while overly dramatic, was at least being captainly and saying “we are going to try it this way.”

So, I liked the episode despite the following problems:

What I don’t understand is how Lorian and the Lorian-Enterprise (LENT) is dealing with Enterprise. If he destroys it or disables it, or prevents it from reaching Degra either through the corridor or because it goes to high warp and blows up, Earth gets destroyed. His only logical option would seem to be to do what eventually happened - guard her and let her fly through. Even if the impulse wake is risky, then coast through as they did. It’s the Least risky course.

The corridor duplicating matter is fine. I do wonder that it is so unstable that an an impulse wake could screw it up. Wouldn’t the Xindi have had accidents that sent them through time? Wouldn’t a Reptilian fleet accidentally have gone back in time and joined their ancient brethren in the Man-Kzinti (uh, Xindi) Wars and helped destroy their own planet? Lorian mentioned that the corridor was one-way. Okay, that means they tried to go back and it didn’t work. Now they would have to have thought of going through the same way again and recreating the impulse wake. Send the ship or a probe with impulse power and see what happens? So shouldn’t the ship or a probe have gone back further in time? So they could try and go see what Really happened to the Xindi homeworld. But maybe the corridor just doesn’t work that way.

I believe the Xindi homeworld was destroyed 120 years ago. So conveniently the LENT arrived after that event, but you’d think they could get some accurate accounts and pass along the knowledge. So, in 117 years, I don’t know why they didn’t either find out ALL about the Xindi or try to make first contact and peace. Archer-2 said they shouldn’t contaminate Earth’s history. But Lorian apparently through the concept of not intruding upon history out the window. He traded technology and the crew interbred. That should have Really affected Expanse history. Though, I notice that no one they’ve met seems to have ever heard of Humans, Vulcans, or Denobulans.

And just what was Lorian-et-al going to get out of blowing up the probe? It’s a probe. You build another because the failure wouldn’t have been a design flaw. The Xindi would just have another excuse to hate Humans if the LENT was around trying to blow up the probe. Oh, and if Lorian hesitated to sacrifice the ship, doesn’t that mean he was close to the probe. Why hasn’t Degra mentioned the attack Lorian should have committed?

The biggest actual versus fake science problem for me is the conference room view of the LENT. Unless I’m completely turned around, Archer and Lorian spoke in a room with windows that showed the starboard side of LENT (the nacelle pointing right to left in the view). The previous shot showed LENT docked to Enterprise’s starboard side. So there isn’t any window on Enterprise that would have a port view of LENT’s starboard side. Am I turned around? :confused:

Some science was just silly. Why have light tubes pulsing up on the bridge? Why are plasma injectors placed in a tube like spark plugs versus placed in-line in a conduit? The inserted end could be the injector, but the near end doesn’t seem to have anyplace for plasma input. Phlox is The Man! He can help Humans and Vulcans interbreed when it was even hard for Spock to be conceived (no cite). It’s a nice slip? when T’Pol implies that Humans and Vulcans have tried interbreeding. T’Pol-2 is 117 years older, but I think Vulcans age better than that. I’ll chalk it up to stress. :slight_smile:

It’s because Reed is a whiny bitch. I think women just don’t usually go for guys like that. :wink:

Gosh, I was thinking almost the same thing. Well, except… in my version they would have found the Xindi and wiped 'em out while they were technologically inferior… :smiley:

I was thinking all those same paradox questions, too. And I like this possibility you presented – would make more sense in terms of why Lorien’s reality didn’t change. And it would also make sense in terms of why the possibility wasn’t mentioned in this show. From Archer’s perspective, it hasn’t happened yet. From Lorien’s perspective, they only knew about their reality – no way to know about a “copy”.

Although the “Occam’s Razor” explanation is… the writers are just pulling it out of their asses as they go along. :wink:

As for leaving the options open (we don’t know what happened to Lorien’s ship) – here’s one possibility: Lorien’s ship shows up in the season finale, and he actually does ram the weapon with his ship, destroying it (and doing what he hesitated in doing on the probe that made the first attack).

And I think that somehow, the majority of the council will eventually be swayed by Archer, but that the weapon will still get launched (against the wishes of the council) by a rogue reptilian faction that’s still in the pocket of HER (the trans-dimensional Founder look-alike). And Archer & Co will still have to destroy it. (This is where the Lorien-ramming possibility kicks in).

I thought this was one of the best episodes they’ve done so far.

Okay, sure, the time paradox had a typical number of holes. No, they didn’t really think about the implications of the situation, and left a number of options unexplored. (If they can’t go back to Earth, and they’re too late to prevent the Xindi homeworld from being destroyed, why don’t they go to Vulcan? I bet the Science Directorate would love them.)

But: They didn’t dwell on the treknobabble. Usually Trek time-travel stories are narratively clunky and unconvincing because they spend so much time inventing gibberish in a lengthy and tortuous attempt to explain why things are just so. “Well, when we zinglebatted the negative-tachyon joogobber, we probably frotzmonkeyed a quantum tesseract, which led to an inversion of the happy warp emitter console isolinear fermion Heisenberg dish EM compensator, and so that’s why we all look like Jessica Simpson.” Instead, they simply said, this is the way it is, now let’s get on with the story. “We did a lot of research, and it’s due to a problem with the impulse manifold (damn manifolds again!), and now here’s what’s going on.” Amazing how much better the story works when they get right to the point.

And I loved that Lorien re-enacted Archer’s previous act of piracy, with almost exactly the same rationalizations. What Archer did to cope with it, beaming out critical gear, was fun and clever (though I’ve wondered since the middle of TNG why nobody was trying something like that: “Worf, beam out their reactor containment module!”), but the important thing, to me, is that the writers are thinking about what they’re doing and writing a story. This is the first time I’ve really felt that they might know what they’re doing, that they aren’t just making shit up as they need it and then dropping it in favor of the next episode’s arbitrary plot device.

Oh, and a subtle touch, something they changed a couple of weeks back that has made a tremendous difference in the energy of the storytelling, something that as far as I know no Trek has done before: Note the abrupt cutoffs of the climaxes of the scenes as we go to commercial. Previously, every single Trek has signaled it was going to commercial by dollying slowly in on a character standing still, showing us they’re internalizing whatever has just happened, having an emotional reaction, long moment, fade to black. It’s a stylistic thing that has been with us since the beginning. But now Enterprise has dumped it, preferring a more modern transition, and I like what it does to the show’s energy. It’s a very small thing in execution, but the effect, I think, is deceptively significant; if nothing else it indicates that the show might be waking up and setting its own stride.

However, I still think Archer is too abrasive, by far. In this episode, at the beginning of a combat scene, he turns around and barks at Malcolm, “Target their weapons!” I half expected Malcolm to say, “Jeez, dude, I’m on it. You don’t have to yell at me.” And this isn’t the same thing as what I was talking about last week, re the producers’ unwillingness to make the characters unlikable, to take risks with them. There’s a difference between giving a character some depth, some internal contradictions that make the individual an interesting and flawed human being, and simply making the character into an asshole. I guess it’s nice that the writers are trying to do this, but I think they’re missing the mark with Archer.

I also wonder why they chickened out having Trip meet the old T’Pol. That is the scene I wanted to see, not T’Pol with herself. It would have been incredibly difficult to write, and just in general a bitch to pull off, but to me, narratively, those are the most interesting scenes. In the first Batman movie, they skipped over the scene where Vicki Vale finds out about the secret identity, and just show her walking up to Bruce Wayne with the knowledge. But her finding out would have been the most interesting scene in the movie, or it should have been— but for whatever reason they decided to skip over it, probably because it would be too difficult. Same thing here: the really good emotional meat is not inside T’Pol, but between her and Trip. Imagine a scene where Trip goes to Old T’Pol, presumably just to talk about her calculations, but really with the objective of figuring out how he and T’Pol end up together. “She drives me crazy!” he could confess; “I mean, you do, well, you know what I mean.” And Old T’Pol could say, “The feeling is mutual. Nevertheless, the positive outweighs the negative. Listen, Charles. She is wounded. I know this because I was wounded. I cannot tell you exactly how, but I have not yet fully healed. I never will. But I have made the progress I have because of you…” That, to me, is where the really good storytelling is: not inside somebody, but between people. The relationship, and its changes, its movements. Not the static agony of somebody who can’t decide what to do, and effectively talks to herself for an hour about it. I’m not saying what they did was bad, but I do think they missed an opportunity because they were intimidated (IMO) by the difficulty of pulling it off.

Compare, for example, the moment with Reed. He finds something out in conversation with Mayweather and Hoshi. We see him start to stew about it. And then he makes a choice outside of himself. That was a nice little moment, and it’s exactly what I’m talking about.

So yeah, I liked this episode quite a bit. I may even watch it a second time.

More of this, please. This is the right track. Stick with it.

Er, what reaction was that? I didn’t see any change in facial expression, there (and I know he can, since I liked his performances in Quantum).

But you’re right – the answering line was obvious enough not to be needed, and it would have been perfect if Archer just gave him this look. Which, I maintain, Bakula did not.

Really, now? I could have sworn there was a kind of relieved half-chuckle, as if to say “Not as early as we almost were…”

Unfortunately, my secondary VCR broke last week, so I don’t have tapes of Enterprise to go back and check anymore. :frowning:

I used to tape Smallville and Enterprise at the same time, so I could keep both, you see. Now I watch Ent and tape Smallville for later.

[QUOTE=Corner Case]
I just have some thoughts about the continuity and logic that need to be addressed in the episode. I had a longer tirade, but I thought I would spare you.

Summary: the Enterprise travelled the corridor and wound up 100 years in the past. The descendants with the descendants-Enterprise (D-Enterprise) meets their ancestors to dissuade them.[list=1?[li]Why does Lorian look old since he should age more slowly as a half-Vulcan?[/list]Any other thoughts?[/li][/QUOTE]

Recall Spock’s father in TOS - he is 102, and retired, although fairly young for that. But hardly looks like a kid. And he is full Vulcan.

Wasn’t there a shot of someone walking by in engineering? We only saw the legs…

(Is Chef the son of that guy Wilson on Home Improvement, where we almost never saw his face?)

Why did most of the other shows routinely store high explosives in the bridge consoles? :stuck_out_tongue:

I think this Enterprise still uses physical armor (hull plating), while the later versions use energy shields. The energy shields prevent transporter use. “Captain, we can’t drop the shields to bring you up!”

Anyone else think of that corny movie *Final Countdown * where the aircraft carrier goes back to 12/6/41, and debates, rather than just intercepting the Japanese fleet and sinking it ? Maybe it would eventually get sunk by a sub, but a Zero wasn’t shooting down modern bombers, and they’d sink everything in sight. A 100-years future Enterprise could’ve probably savaged the Xindi. Heck, they could’ve left a note for Kirk to come in, what, 80 years? The TOS Enterprise could roar in at warp 8, phasers blazing, and wreck the first probe and the weapons facility, and have Kirk boink some Xindi chick (how old was Degra’s daughter???)

I expected to see Archer debate going in and blowing up the Xindi 100 years before the fact. Maybe decide not to, fearing some retribution by the time-travelling aliens, but have to deal with Trip “Waddaya MEAN we aren’t going to stop them now? My sister…”

Well, we taped it, but even so I only watched it once and haven’t checked again. So I’ll have to admit that it’s possible that he had more of a reaction, and I just missed it. I was looking for just that, though, so if I missed it, I’m surprised.

But we can agree that it was a good line by Degra, and a setup for a good reaction.

Yep - still being bugged by the fact they didn’t go
a) annihalate
b) be best friends with
the Xindi. It’s not like there’s any Prime Directive to follow or ignore…

And this episode convinced me that Jolene Blalock can actually act.

:eek:

Must…get paddles…working…on chest…CLEAR!
Twitching…
Shock of my life. :smiley:

lurkernomore: I think Chef is related to Niles’ ex-wife Maris on Frasier, since we heard of her but never saw her; whereas Wilson the neighbor showed most of his face, if not all of it.

Ignore the dorkily (yes, it is a real word because I say so) redundant last five words of my previous post.

:smack:

Writing Shatner’s parts, now?

Maybe it’s me, but the time they had to hide out in the engine pylons (was it for radiation shielding?) didn’t we see Chef’s legs? He handed down a meal to someone?

Actually, Chef is one of those rare species of bipedal life forms. That’s right, bipedal only. He is just legs, nothing else.

So, you see, you’ve already seen all of him.