Slythe, you have just earned the longest thread that may ever be, IMHO.
sorry for the hyjack!
feels like a huge shinook came and moved a house of granite over from New Guinea to the top of Mt.Everest.
How many of you moderators and Admins did it take to lift this thing??? Hats off to you gentlemen and ladies, and congratulations Spoofe on a job well done here…
ig88 wrote:
This notion comes from Star Trek: The Motion Picture, in which Admiral Kirk explains that it is dangerous to engage the newly-refitted Enterprise’s warp drive while still in the Solar system, and in which the Enterprise’s warp drive does indeed create an accidental wormhole when they do engage it.
The problem is, the show contradicts this point in every single episode where the Enterprise is shown operating within a star system. In Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, the crew even takes a Kilingon Bird of Prey to warp speed while it’s still in Earth’s atmosphere! The original series frequently shows Kirk ordering “ahead, warp one” while the Enterprise is just beginning to leave orbit. The TOS episode “Arena” has the Enterprise chasing a Gorn vessel within a star system at warp eight, and arming its weapons at the same time.
My guess – and that of some other Trekkers, I’m sure – is that in Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Kirk was referring to the danger of running into other ships if they went to warp speed within the Sol system. The Sol system is, after all, the big central metropolitan hub of the entire Federation, as well as the home of Star Fleet headquarters. The fact that the Enterprise subsequently created its own wormhole in the same movie can be attributed to its new-and-untested warp drive system, rather than to the fact that they happened to be inside the orbit of Pluto.
There is no evidence in any of the Trek episodes, 23rd or 24th century, that normal gravity interferes with warp drive.
Thank you, thank you, Soulsling. I’m so proud. ::sniff::
ANYway, I would imagine that the effects of gravity on the Enterprise-D would be negligible, and the Star Destroyer doesn’t have a spare Interdictor lying around anyway, so that point’s negligible. An interesting thought, though.
I’m curious, though… we know that, at top impulse speed, the Enterprise can move faster than the Star Destroyer, but what kind of acceleration does it have? How long, on average, would be the delay between the captain giving the order and the Enterprise powering up the engine and getting away? And, lastly, can the Enterprise jump directly to warp from a stationary position, without any forward velocity?
I’m surprised at myself… I should have asked this earlier.
Did I actually use the word “negligible” twice in the same sentence? Ew, that sounds so unnatural.
We’ve had this discussion before in our friends group and we believe Data’s reflexes would enable him to keep up with a jedi in a lightsabre duel. We brought up the telekinetic use of the force but it was pointed out that Data weighs something approaching 10 tonnes which may be a strain for anyone short of Vader and even he and the emporer may struggle. Where our discussion broke down was a) using the focre to fling other things at Data would distract and b) Data’s code could prevent him from killing even Vader (he’d surely prefer incapacitation) and the fact that the Empire could possibly use a hostage situation to force Data’s hand (so to speak).
We’ve had this discussion before in our friends group and we believe Data’s reflexes would enable him to keep up with a jedi in a lightsabre duel. We brought up the telekinetic use of the force but it was pointed out that Data weighs something approaching 10 tonnes which may be a strain for anyone short of Vader and even he and the emporer may struggle. Where our discussion broke down was a) using the focre to fling other things at Data would distract and b) Data’s code could prevent him from killing even Vader (he’d surely prefer incapacitation) and the fact that the Empire could possibly use a hostage situation to force Data’s hand (so to speak).
Apologies for the double post.
As always, it was technology that was to blame.
Erm, correct me if I’m wrong. But I coulda sworn I’ve seen a couple of eps in TNG where Data’s prone body was lifted by a couple of fellow crew members. Doesn’t that make the claim that he weighs 10 tonnes rather suspect?
And besides, when will you padawans ever learn “Size matters not.” ?
I’m hijacking my own thread again…
Data’s reflexes would enable him to keep up with a Jedi?
In Shadows of the Empire, Guri, a human replica droid, fought with Luke. Now, Guri was designed for speed and strength (it was said that she was the only HRD designed to be an assassin), so I’d imagine that her reflexes would be better than Data’s (I’ve never seen anything to imply that his reflexes were supernaturally faster than a human’s… although if someone gives a cite I wouldn’t mind acknowledging that… Tracer, where are you?). Anyway, Luke had a fight with her, and it wasn’t until he began “allowing the Force to flow through him” that he managed to get the upper hand… really easily, too.
With Vader, who’s better at that sort of thing, I don’t think he’d have much trouble. But Vader is one of those “wild cards” that I don’t like to include in debates like this, just because his exact capabilities are unknown.
In fact, to get sorta back on topic, whenever I argue with friends about the OP, I usually get rid of any of the “star characters” from either series and just include an “average Fed crew” and an “average Imp crew”, just to avoid things like “Well, Data could do THIS” or “Vader could do THAT”.
Well SPOOFE, I’m on your side in this but Data is capable of moving considerably faster than humans. A lot faster. On teh weight thing however I’m still a bit unsure. Yoda lifted an X-Wing and could have probably lifted more (he da green man after all).
Data doesnt use his superhuman abilities as much since he wants to fit in with the crew more.
After stumbling upon this debate I felt I had to offer my own humble opinions. Scanning through the various messages I’ve seen good points made and interesting questions raised on both sides of the issue, but here are the basic facts that I think tip the scales hughly in favor of the Star Destroyer…
For the sake of this discussion, let’s assume a standard Imperial Star Detroyer and not the larger monsters Vader was fond of. I think the standard version is enough…
Can the SD’s turbolasers effect the Enterprise? It was mentioned that turbolasers might not even effect the Enterprise’s shields, based on a comment in a Trek episode in which they scoffed at ‘lasers’ being used against the Enterprise. Well ‘turbolasers’ aren’t ‘lasers’. Lasers are basically just amplified light, they impart no kinetic energy. They just cut through their target. Star Wars era turbolasers have a kinetic effect (the bolts ‘explode’ upon impact). So based on that alone I think it’s safe to say that turbolasers would definitely be effective.
Size matters: The ISD is 1600 meters long, is equipped with 60 turbolasers, 60 ion cannons, 72 tie fighters and a crew of approx. 37,000 (not counting droids). The Enterprise D is 641 meters long, has two photon torpedo launchers, one phaser array ring (unknown how many phaser shots can be fired at once, but episodes have shown it firing at least 5-6 at a time…figure at least 12 just to be fair), and a crew of a little over 1,000. Both ships have shields (i.e. electronic defenses), but the ISD also has heavy plate armor. Everything else aside the ISD can soak up a lot more damage just due to its size. Also, the Enterprise has ONE weapons officer firing ship’s weapons. And even if he can fire all weapons at once that’s one spread of torpedoes and about a dozen phaser blasts. The ISD uses a gunner for each weapon, giving it 120 shots at one time, not counting the tie fighters. And of course the Enterprise would be swarmed by tie fighters, both standard and bombers styles.
Can Star Trek transporters go through Star Wars shields? We have no way to know for sure, but if Star Wars shields are effective against weapons it stands to reason that they would effect transporters as well. Why does this matter though? People have mentioned that all the Enterprise would have to do is transport a bomb to the ISD. Moot point, the Federation doesn’t fight that way. When did you ever see the Enterprise “bomb” an enemy ship? They had plenty of opportunity to do so, but they’re too honorable to do that. But assuming that they get desperate enough to do so the ISD’s shields would most likely stop their transporters. If not, the ISD could soak up a lot of damage that way while it’s weapons and tie fighters were ripping the Enterprise apart. The only other reason to use the transporter would be to board the ISD, but the Enterprise doesn’t carry marines, and even if they used their entire crew they would be out-numbering 37 to 1, against Storm Troopers in body armor and heavy blast weapons.
Due to sheer scale of size and number of weapons the ISD would definitely be the victor. The Enterprise could escape if it wanted. While hyper-drive is faster than warp it has to be plotted in advance and it’s basically a straight-line mode of movement. Warp is ‘steerable’, so the Enterprise could duck out and escape but it couldn’t hold it’s own against an ISD in a one-on-one slug feast.
Now, if you really want to consider a fair fight…how about an Imperial Star Destroyer vs. the Battlestar Galactica?
Welcome to the SDMB, Non-Curved Narcotic. I’m flattered that you chose my humble 'lil thread to post in first.
Star Destroyer vs. BS-Galactica? Should be fun, though I know nothing about the Galactica itself. Why don’t you start your own thread? Break into the SDMB with a GNAB!
Thsi Question was first pointed out to my friends and I in an issue of Inquest, a magazine about CCGs. This spawned an arguement that lasted about 4-5 months till we desided to just have a i cant beleave i am about to say this “intelegent” discution.
Both ships have the ability to go faster then light but the Enterprise can split up… So the can run attack and as they start to lose run like hell. OR sence there can be two parts of the ship they can seperate adn ram INTO the ISD an dend it in a draw. Or they can even drag the borg into it.
aka selling picards ass: “Yea, we’ll give you the old fart…just kill those guys”
Now for brute strength the ISD is a sure to win ship. *My choise personaly i finaly got them to see it my way >=) *
It has more weapons and the lil tie fighters. Cant forget teh shields to.
And if that dont convense you then how about this…the Enterpirse has wesly crusher…evil is alwasy distroyed in teh movies adn next to wesly the empire is filled with saits. ewwww the evil THE EVIL!!!
No i dont have a life…does that suprise you?
Thsi Question was first pointed out to my friends and I in an issue of Inquest, a magazine about CCGs. This spawned an arguement that lasted about 4-5 months till we desided to just have a i cant beleave i am about to say this “intelegent” discution.
Both ships have the ability to go faster then light but the Enterprise can split up… So the can run attack and as they start to lose run like hell. OR sence there can be two parts of the ship they can seperate adn ram INTO the ISD an dend it in a draw. Or they can even drag the borg into it.
aka selling picards ass: “Yea, we’ll give you the old fart…just kill those guys”
Now for brute strength the ISD is a sure to win ship. *My choise personaly i finaly got them to see it my way >=) *
It has more weapons and the lil tie fighters. Cant forget teh shields to.
And if that dont convense you then how about this…the Enterpirse has wesly crusher…evil is alwasy distroyed in teh movies adn next to wesly the empire is filled with saits. ewwww the evil THE EVIL!!!
No i dont have a life…does that suprise you?
Lets just say that the enterprise reached speeds up to Warp 10, wouldn’t they travel back in time to save some whales?
:wally
:wally
:wally
On the issue of firing from warp speed at non-FTL targets:
Although I recall no specific episodes in which this happens, that makes sense. The warp, fire, warp or warp while shooting tactic will not work against ST ships. A Star Trek ship can track the Enterprise while warping, or can warp to follow. So of course it won’t come up. Even if they did try it, the combat would essentially instantly become sub-FTL or at warp.
Moreover, there’s no reason to believe that a weapon fired from warp speed couldn’t hit a target not at warp–as far as I can tell, while travelling at warp, you still occupy the same “realspace” as at impulse; this is as opposed to hyperspace, which is clearly different.
As for the amount of damage possible using this tactic, I don’t know positively (of course). However, I can relate a similar experience from playing TIE fighter:
While it is extremely difficult to destroy large ships with small surgical strikes, it can be done. The shields regenerate quickly, but if done well, you can eliminate the opposition without taking more than a hit or two.
Of course, the ISD could still just hyperspace away…but that’s another issue.