Enterprise vs. Star Destroyer

In My Humble Opinion
61

I might as well throw in my 2 cents.

Lets say that the ISD doesn’t simply destroy the Enterprise while they are attempting diplomacy with a “micro-jump”. I mean, why would they? they’d be wondering Who the hell these people with weird weapons, weird propulsion and other technologies are.

First off Enterprise has a sensor range of many many lightyears. As compared to Sw when the Falcon couldn’t even determine what the Death-star was without visual recon. The Enterprise would have ample time to scan the ISD and find any weaknesses, including the sheild generator positions (big white towers that just bed SHOOT ME.)

When a battle ensued after the inital diplomatic attempts the Enterprise would have 2 tactical choices. Warp around and attack the SD from warp velocities, thus dodging all attacks the ISD could possibly throw at it or
send in their shuttlecraft(some of which are built for speed and menuverability, A-wing anyone?) to take down the sheild generators and then go to warp velocity and beam aboard bombs(hrm-replicators would be nice here… make a trillion little bombs) into the ISD engine room. Use their own antimatter against them :slight_smile:

Just a rant…But couldn’t you technically build 2 huge holoemitters(which in the ST universe could actually generate things that can effect people) and stick them onto ships which would fly in tandem and if anything ever got between them they would simply create a solid bar between them and destroy anything in between? Granted this would take insane amounts of power, but wouldn’t it be possible? Well, that was some weird Idea I just made up…

tired… sleep… later
~bored2001

62

O.K., since everyone likes to bring in obsure resourses for this subject, I should bring in information from the game Star Fleet Battles.

Point of fact: Phasers are not lasers and can be used in warp combat.

Point of fact: The Enterprise-D is a flag ship of the a Federation Fleet, not just a diplomatic barge. As a flagship, it has to be designed as part of the combat line.

If the Enterprise was to engage in combat knowingly, as indicated by the original question, then it would do so at warp speeds. The Enterpises sensors are designed to engange targets in this mode, the ISD’s sensors are not. The Enterpise warps in, unloads and alpha strike against the ISD and warps out without even slowing. The ISD sensor officer would only see two targets departing from the area.

While the ISD can microjump from here to enternity, the Enterprise would be able to take measurements on vectors and figure out where the ISD would show up. Anyways, if the ISD cannot sit still, it cannot hold territory.

As far as the TIE fighters are concerned, they’d be as useless as biplanes against nuclear carriers. For crying out loud, even the shuttles on the Enterprise are warpcapable.

No one ever said this was a Vader vs. Picard debate. We’ll assume that there are halfway decent officers on both ships. The Enterprise commander would simply load up a shuttle with an antimatter bomb and warp it into the ISD. (If sub-light fighters can get in, the so can a shuttle.) Kiss the command tower and all it’s sheild generators good bye.

As for the Stormtoopers versus Federation Marines, the money would have to go to the Fed Marines. The Stormtroopers armor is obviously for show because it’s no good against something as simple as a three foot tall primitive teddy bear with a stick! At least the Fed Marines aren’t encumbered by worthless armor.

Of course, since episode 1 determined that the force was connected to a person through a disease (microb), then the federation doctors would simply ‘cure’ it and the Sith and Jedi would be… normal?

But comparing the Enterprise and the ISD is like comparing apples to hamburgers. Everyone knows that the Battlestar Galactica would open a can of whoop ass on both of them. The BSG has a fighter compliment and is designed to take heavy damage. And, unlike the ISD, has weapons that can draw a firing resolution on a small, fast fighter. The BSG has weapons that can take on another capital ship with desisive results.

Of course, the ships from B5 should be thrown into the discussion. Is there anything else?

63

Points of note:

  1. The federation doesn’t HAVE marines. and I’m refering to as seen on the screen, since that was the defined source. If they DID have true marines, the Borg/ Dominion/ Cardassians/ etc wouldn’t be the problems that they were. How they manage to occupy ANYPLACE without dedicated ground troops is beyond me.
  2. the Ewoks in ROTJ won because of Guerrilla Tactics. If you doubt it, look at Vietnam. Besides, we don’t see how many of the little buggers got blasted by Storm troopers (except 1) because of the Movie “Cute Factor” i.e. “mommy mommy, why are all the cute little teddies dying… <sniffle> WAH!!! BAMBI’S MOMMY IS DEAD!”
  3. Phasers may not be lasers, but where did you ever get the idea that they can be used in warp? As far as I can recall (and if you know of another instance, please tell me), they have only been used at impulse speeds, and in anycase, ANY weapon where you can see it’s front event horizon move FROM one point TO anothoer (i.e. from Enterprise to Romulan Warbird) moves slower than light and is therefore useless at FTL or Warp speeds. This also includes Turbolasers, Photorps, Quantorps, and other sundries.
  4. Federation Sensors have trpuble penetrating dense materials. What do you think Imperial Starship Armor is? Tissue Paper? it’s a dense metal, designed to stop major amounts of energy (Turbolasers), and no matter what anyone says, that’s what sensors are, manipulated energy fields. Plus enterprise on repeated occasions while scanning Alien Ships has had trouble distinguishing internal features aside from “There are 3 humanoid lifesigns, but not sure what species.”
  5. Shuttlecraft maneuverable? <<snicker>> Maneuverable as an A-Wing? <<guffaw>> you poor duped fellow…
    6.The flag ship of a fleet of thinly hulled, mostly designed for science vessels. A flagship designed for PR missions and to show off the UFP’s Dedication to Peace. A Flagship that carries families and children. Vs a starship the size of a city, designed for planetary bombardment and occupation & for massive space combat. mmmhmmm… gee… that’s a tough one to call… hmmm… :rolleyes:

Since you mentioned that Straight Combat is the predefined scenario, One more point on Fed Technology. Yes, they may have better sensors. indeed they may have superb tracking systems. So what? ISD’s aren’t designed for dodging and weaving. They are designed for Command, Control and Bombardment. Before Enterprise was even in weapons range, they’d be dealing with a plethora of Fighters. SURE, they can track them all… But The Enterprise -D (assuming this is teh ship in question) has an upper & lower phaser array on the saucer, a belly array, and 3 Photorp Tubes (2 front 1 aft). This is what I have observed on teh show, and seems confirmed by what literature i have read through. Assuming they all fire at independent targets, this gives you 6 targets at a maximum per broadside. Phaser banks seem to take a few seconds to recharge, and photorps take a few to reload. ISD’s carry a MINIMUM compliment of 72 fighters. Do the math… Enterprise has to hold her own for around 25-30 sec, assuming they hit on every shot (which, by observation, they won’t) and kill on every shot (also by observation, they won’t) All the while with the ISD closing into Gunnery Range.

By the time the ISD closes, assuming Enterprise’s usual level of shot accuracy, they will have destroyed about half the fighters, but her shields, if not down, are at the breaking point from Turbolaser & warhead blasts from fighters and collisions with dying TIE’s. Now there suddenly comes a Barrage of massed fire, an Alpha Strike from a Kilometer and a half long Warmonger. Enterprise tries to find a clear path to warp out, to lick her’s wounds and regroup, or to try the infamous Picard Maneuver, but they are surrounded by fighters and debris that her overworked deflectors could never clear out of the way fast enough, and a warp speed collision is the last thing she needs.

More fighters die, but Enterprise’s shields are long gone, and, while the ISD’s shields are taking heavy damage from phasers and Photorps, the underlying armor is absorbing much of the splashover. Enterprise’s comparitively eggshell thin hull plating is no match for the giant brute’s pure fortitude in battle. Her warp core damaged from repeated hits, impulse down to almost nothing, Enterprise dies in a flame of glory, her explosion washing over the scarred plating of the ISD like water on a duck, and off just as easily. The Empire is once again victorious.

And far out on the edge of the system, the HMS Nike powers up her wedge and begins the long drive inwards as a 'cat claws a reinforced shoulder nervously…

Good Morrow to you all :slight_smile:

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danielnsmith wrote:

I wouldn’t use Star Fleet Battles as a model for Star Trek ship-to-ship combat, for these reasons:

[ul][li]Star Fleet Battles only covers starships of the Kirk/Spock era, e.g. the Constitution Class Enterprise NCC-1701 and the up-rated Enterprise Class NCC-1701-A from the first 6 movies. It does not even try to model starships from the later ST:TNG era, such as the Galaxy Class Enterprise NCC-1701-D under discussion in this thread.[/li][li]All combat in Star Fleet Battles must take place at speeds below Warp 3.2 (TOS warpspeed scale). This contradicts not only ST:TNG, but a few battles in ST:TOS as well.[/li]One 32-impulse-long turn in Star Fleet Battles, during which a ship may fire all of its weapons, bank and maneuver several times, engage tractor beams, send out a boarding party, etc., works out to last one-thirtieth of one second! (The scale of the game is 1 hex = 10,000 kilometers, and a speed of 1 hex per turn is equal to the speed of light. In real life, light travels at 300,000 kilometers per second. You do the math.)[/ul]

65

ThisNameForRent wrote:

Photon torpedoes most definitely travel faster-than-light. This is confirmed in the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual, which has been used as the definitive technical reference for the Enterprise D since ST:TNG season 3.

Starfleet ships don’t need heavily armored hulls, because their shields provide protection far superior to any material alloy. Unlike the so-called “shields” used by a certain Galactic Empire <snigger>.

Not if they closed to weapons range at warp speed.

66

This is so silly, but what the hey, so am I.

Trek wins. Easilly, without even puting up shields. Trek battles frequently take place at warp speed. Trek weapons are designed to function FTL. SD weapons go slower than light. Thus, the Enterprise, ( or Voyager, or Defiant, or, even Grissom ) could repeatedly attack the SD w/o ever being in danger of a return hit. You can’t hit a ftl target with a slower than light weapon. Shields are thus not needed. Shields are also variable as to what they repulse. The Feds always rotate shield frequencies when they encounter the Borg, so the Borg can’t adapt. Why would a SD shields be set to repell transporter beams if they didn’t know they existed? Beam a bit of antimater into the SD engine room, the explosion releases either the black hole containment system or the antimater containment system and the whole SD either collapses or explodes. ( both drives have been offered here) Micro bursts of hyperdrive? Can you say 'Picard manuver"? Now, I’m not saying that SW isn’t entertaining, it is. But the technology shown is waaaay behind Trek technology. Same with the Death Star. It would be the equivelent of an Iowa class battleship. These can be sunk by a missile boat nowadays. Battleships have a range of 20 miles. Missile boats, over 100. It would never even get a shot off at the Trek ship, again 'cuz it couldn’t fight FTL. And FWIW, Col. West, the guy who tried to assisinate the Klingon Chancellor at the end of ST6, was a Federation Marine.

Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.

Relax, I’m not as Dave as I look!- A Wallified sig!

67

All righty, I promised myself I wouldn’t bring this up, but others have forced my hand…

There’s been much saying that Star Trek technology is “way advanced” comapred too Star Wars. I don’t see how that basis comes up. Sure, everything looks clean and sterilized and perfect and everything… so what? Logic dictates otherwise. Here’s my line of reasoning…

Technology in Star Trek is the result of, oh, 300 years of development? 400? Something like that.

Technology in Star Wars is the result of at least 25,000 years (the Old Republic lasted that long, and they had a lot of the basics that “modern” Star Wars has). See the difference?

Second, Ray shields, one of the two types of shields that most SW ships have, are designed to keep out just about any form of energy, be it cosmic radiation, gamma particles, energy weapons… and, most likely, transporter beams, unless transporter beams travel faster and are smaller than individual electrons, which I doubt.

Third, we’re talking about a battle that’s lasting for maybe thirty seconds. Shuttlecraft can be completely ignored since there probably wouldn’t be any thought to use them, much less time for people to get in them, power them up, and take off.

Fourth, all of you who say that the Enterprise can go to warp and attack from there are ignoring the obvious flaw in that theory… THEY WOULDN’T HAVE TIME TO THINK OF IT. That theory assumes that the Enterprise crew has previous and precise knowledge of the ISD, its’ intentions, its’ layout, etc. The ISD, on the other hand, would see the Enterprise as a nifty haul of new loot.

-SPOOFE

68

Yes they do. If you ever watched DS9 there are many instances of troop combat.

I guess a turbolaser doesn’t move the speed of light either. OOps it’s not a laser then!
It’s effects people effects!

Yes… dense materials KI-LOM-E-TERS thick OR alloys specifically designed to block sensors. What are the chances that an engineer will have inadvertantly designed such a material when federation scientists WHO HAVE SENSOR TECHNOLOGY can’t?

Pulling this from memory now…I seem to have an affinity for these useless facts but…

In the episode of the appearance of the Delta flyer Tom Paris specifically says that these shuttles were built for speed and maneuverability but not designed for comfort. These were type 2 shuttles I believe.

As for the squadrons of Tie fighters, surely you’ve got to be kidding me. Since on first assult they will obviously fly in packs while en route, all you’d need to do is program a single high yeild(high blast radius) warhead and launch it out the photon tubes are warpspeeds. Boom bye bye Tie fighter squadron.
~Bored2001
Damn… I must be bored :slight_smile:

69

SPOOFE Bo Diddly wrote:

But not Proton Torpedoes!

70

Particle shields, the other of the two types of shields that an ISD has, will do nicely to keep torpedoes out, be they proton, photon, quantum, or whatever.

Also, to address the “armor can’t scramble sensors” issue… the armoring on a Star Destroyer is really thick, and really dense. Plus, there are miles of hallways, acres of storage rooms, and plenty of small crawlways and ventilation shafts. Scanning all that so that it’d produce any worthwhile information would take several hours, at least. THIS IS AN ENCOUNTER THAT PROBABLY WON’T LAST FOR MORE THAN A COUPLE MINUTES.

Also, it isn’t Federation policy to launch a full-scale sensor sweep of a newly encountered ship. Such action would violate the Prime Directive. Remember… the Federation has VERY strict protocols to follow when encountering a ship like this, and preparing a quantum torpedo to take out a flight of fighters or going to warp and attacking from high speeds are not among them. The Star Destroyer commander would have no such limitations… he’s free to engage any time he wants for any reason he wants.

-SPOOFE

71

HAHAHAAHA DS9 ground combat scenes are soooo pathetic. I mean really, they had Nog in combat. Who teaches those guys how to fight? Federation Marines are no match for Stormtroopers anyday, at any time. Of course that is just my opinion.

72

In response to Bored:
Yes, you see Ground combat. But NO they are not marines. If you watch, they are always Starfleet officers, usually Yellow Shirted Security people or starship crewmen who get caught in the action. Else why would Captain Sisco always have to lead assaults instead of having a nice Marine Colonel to do it for him, the way a proper military would do it? and who would let NOG fight?!?!?! Federation “Ground Troops” are just fleet officers who get pulled from stations, handed a phaser and told to shoot bad guys. Besides, they are, you have to admit, pretty pathetic at it.

We already established (see page 1)that Turbolasers are a high energy weapon that acts as a solid projectile type weapon. WHat we are seeing is probably excess energy burnoff (what are effects? <muhahahaha> ) doesn’t reallyt matter i suppose in the long run. Laser may simply be an archaic hold over term, like the Mobile in Mobile Home or the Intelligence in Military Intelligence :stuck_out_tongue:

Alien Ship hulls aren’t “KI-LOM-E-TERS” thick, nor are most alloys specifically designed to stop sensors. rather on several occasions, Enterprise had trouble due to heavy armor. Hell they had trouble scanning the insides of romulan warbirds through their tinfoil hulls from few hundred km off.

Tom Paris can say what he wants. Designed for speed and maneuverability as opposed to a STARSHIP doesn’t mean they cando a tight Immelman. As for High yield warheads, The federation obviously doen’;t have them, otherweise why didn’t they USE them at those minor little skirmishes like WOLF 359 or The defense of earth in ST:FC? strikes me that if they’d have high yield explosive devices anyplace, it’d be earth, and yet the borg still got through…

As for all of you who keep saying that trek Battles repeatedly take place at warp speeds, i’m still waiting for eamples, instances, regular occurances of this…

As for not being able to hit an FTL target with an STL weapon, you certaily can… same way submarines hit things with torpedoes… Firing solutions… you predict where your opponent will be, and fire THERE (It’s called PHYSICS…<gasp> )

And tracer, If the federation shields are so fantastic, why is it that they get hit by something and their shield lvls drop by 15-30%? Give me Durasteel armor ANY DAY. and torps don’t move faster than light, otherwise they would hit their target before we see them hit it. And that doesn’t happen, does it?

May the Scoobyness be with you :slight_smile:

73

Honestly, do you have any clue about what you’re talking about? To wit: An object cannot move FTL in an einsteinian universe. Both SW and ST go outside normal space to exceed the speed of light, SW with hyperspace and ST with warp space. The difference is that ST ships can fight either in warp space or in normal space. SW ships can’t. For examples, just think of almost any Borg episode. The Enterprise jumps to maximum warp. The cube follows. Both ships exchange fire while in warp. Launching an attack anywhere in normal space isn’t going to touch a ship in warp space or hyperspace.

Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.

Relax, I’m not as Dave as I look!- A Wallified sig!

74

I’d first have to say this discussion is stupid… but onto the point anyway

Um voyager’s computer can do something along the lines of 2 trillion calculations per second. What would you say the flagship of the federation could do? Not to mention having DATA as an asset.

Of course not, but every single member of starfleet from cadet to admiral has had combat training.

And you would assume this by what?

Hrm… from races that had sensor technology?

Thanks for the example. It would make sense that they would be hard to scan since they

  1. Know/have Sensor technology
  2. Would be a tactical advantage
  3. Are a very secretive race

Wtf is a Immelman?

and who says? The delta flyer is damn maneuverable and so I the defiant class warship. Why not a ship that was specifically designed to do just that?

Yes they have them. Voyager vs species 8479(wow I remembered that number…) They blasted a who squadron of their organic ships with several torpedos including one which was calibrated to be high yeild.

Why they use them so sparingly is totally beyond me. Probably so that you don’t just end battles with a single blast.

Wouldn’t be very visually stunning if we just had battles where the other ship explodes. They do that so that they can make it look good.

~bored2001

75

Hyperspace is coterminous with realspace. This has been pretty much set as a standard. Objects with mass create a mass shadow that can destroy a ship in hyperspace.

I don’t know how it is with warp. To my knowledge, the point has never come up to any great extent. However, if things in warp aren’t able to affect things in “realspace” (I forget the term used in ST, so I’ll use the one used in SW) and vice versa, then the Enterprise couldn’t go to warp and attack the Star Destroyer from there, anyway. The way it’s described above, weapons can be used in warp all right, but only against other ships in warp. And I’ve never seen a Star Destroyer go to warp. So that’s the end of that line of reasoning. Anybody got anything else to prove or disprove this?

-SPOOFE

76

You could still stop and go. Warp outa range. fire, go into warp once again pop out into a different spot and repeat. The isd would have no way to track you since they don’t have any sensors designed to pick up warp signatures.

77

The main computer isn’t what’s doing the scanning of the Star Destroyer, the scanners are (oh, man, I feel ill for having to point out something so blatantly obvious). The main computer only takes the information gathered by the sensors and analyzes the data into a readable “printout” of sorts. The sensors can only do so much so fast… it’s not a matter of calculations per second, it’s a matter of the scanners peaking through a very dense metal to the huge maze of hallways, rooms, piping, electrical systems, life signs, etc. inside… meaning it’d take a long, long time for the sensors to find the bridge or any other crucial systems. Add to that the fact that most of the Star Destroyer’s systems would be completely unknown to the Enterprise, and you lose almost any possibility of the Enterprise finding any crucial systems to hit in time.

And Data, contrary to popular belief, isn’t some sort of invincible Swiss-Army-Knife. There’s only so much he can do. Just because he’s sitting at the sensor board, it doesn’t mean the sensors can… well… sense any faster.

78

The Enterprise scanned a borg cube in a matter of seconds. But I do concede the fact that the SD’s systems are probably totally foreign.

FYI, I was talking about Data as an analyzer of the data that the computer processes.

79

Boy, have we reached Nerdvana here or what?

grin to show I’m kidding

Live a Lush Life
Da Chef

80

To wierddave,
Gee, thanks for pointing that out, kind of settles that whole “Enterprise blasts past at warp 9 firing all guns” hypothesis. And just so you know, I do know what i’m talking about. I was simply trying to counter that theory without actually going into warp field theory (which, by the way, currently says that yes you CAN hit something going FTL, assuming you know it’s course vectors, velocity along those vectors. And yes, and Object can move FTL in einsteinian space. the reason it’s called WARP theory is that you warp the space around youto make it possible. And it all obeys einstein. so bugger off :stuck_out_tongue: )

Bored: It’ Species 8472 (you DIDN’T remember the number) If you don’t know what an Immelman is, well… then maneuverability isn’t especially an area of expertise for you. Not mine either, but you do learn about maneuverability in in flight mechanics and aerodynamics.

And Bored, the day the average someone who has had “combat training” in the academy is as good as the average someone who spends all day practicing how to take other sentient beings apart with their bare hands, I will personally fall onto the floor in convulsions. Don’t believe me? Get the captain of a Navy Carrier and a Marine in a room and have them go at one another. I bet I can tell you who will walk out. And it 's not gonna be the Navy Captain.

In any case, all of this is academia. :stuck_out_tongue: because, as stated, NONE OF IT IS REAL. they are ACTORS. <hears some poor nerd somewhere scream as his mind’s perceptions shatter>

Now Glaxy Quest, THAT was real.
<muhahahaha>

Get Crazy withe the Cheez Whiz :slight_smile: