NameForRent, I ment my “don’t know what your talking about” comment to be taken with a grain of salt. NONE of us know what we’re talking about, these things aren’t real!! Sorry if the irony didn’t come across on the screen. Now, on a lighter note. You said:
Do you have a source for this. ( OMG IM AM SUCH A GEEK!!!) I always understood Warp space to be “otherspace” or a realm of space where Einstein DOES NOT apply. Just so you know, I am very familiar with ST mythos, not so much with SW mythos. Maybe that’s a SW idea, and so I am not sure of the details.
Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it.
Relax, I’m not as Dave as I look!- A Wallified sig!
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And tracer, If the federation shields are so fantastic, why is it that they get hit by something and their shield lvls drop by 15-30%?
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Because they’re getting hit with STAR TREK weapons, which do far more damage than any of your puny Star Wars turbolasers can.
By that logic, Star Destroyers’ turbolaser beams travel at only a few thousand miles per hour, since that’s how fast they appear to be travelling in the movies. Even a NASA Space Shuttle could dodge something that slow.
If you want to retcon the known properties of photon torpedoes (as listed in the official ST:TNG Tech Manual) with the special effects we see on the show, you could say that we’re not really “seeing” the torpedo itself as it travels through space at FTL velocities anymore than we’re “seeing” the stars receding behind the Enterprise while it’s moving at warp speed. You could say that the viewscreen (or the special effects artist) “draws” images of objects that are receding FTL, based on sensor data. (Star Trek sensors emit subspace broadcasts, which travel even faster than a ship at high warp.)
Answer this, in the Star trek movie with the borg queen, ole Picard goes into the Holo suite and grabs a thompson machine gun and kills some borg. WTF happened to their shields? Can’t the shields stop projectile rounds?
Hmm, somehow the MB thought I wanted to submit my response before i actually did.
In combat, why would a ship have constant velocity? Isn’t evaive action one of the first actions taken?
Of course, all this stuff about technology isn’t important, since the Empire would leave a bay-door-that-happens-to-be-right-next-to-the-main-engine-room open, a Federation shuttle would fire into the opening, and kablooey. Or something similar.
First of all, a shuttle can’t just fire into the main hangar bay…it’s shields (Why does everyone forget that a Star Destroyer’s shields actually work as opposed to the shields in Star Trek?) would stop any phaser blast. Another thing: The hangar is not right next the main engine room. The engine compartment (well, not the secondary or tertiary rooms) is located in the aft section of the ship beneath layers upon layers of armor, whereas the landing bays are more towards the front middle of the ship.
Another thing that’s been bugging me…everyone says that turbolasers would not be effective against ST shields. Well, how do you know phasers would be effective against SW shields?
Also, we keep forgetting proton torpedoes and ion cannons from the Star Destroyer, as well as the gunboats, TIE bombers, Skipray blastboats, and Gamma shuttles (Which would be major threats to shuttles and the Enterprise because they have missiles, torpedoes, mines, bombs…and explosives are proven to work against ST shields).
One more thing and I will be done. Those large spheres on top of the Star Destroyer’s bridge are not the shield generators for the whole ship, but rather deflector shields as a second protective measure for the bridge. Imperial researches realized the main shields were not impervious to all forms of attack and therefore included this second set of shields to protect this vital area.
Because they don’t. X-wing fighters have deflectors, and one direct hit from a puny little TIE fighter’s guns is enough to blast an X-wing into fiery dust.
See above.
Which would never be able to hit the Enterprise while it was flying at warp speed.
Gunners firing projectiles that move more slowly than their target could still hit a target maneuvering erratically, provided they got continuous, instantaneous updates of its position and velocity, and they got lucky.
Which bring up the following issue: Can a Star Destroyer track a target while the target is moving faster-than-light?
People, people, people… the “Enterprise can go to warp to avoid getting hit” theory has already been completely debunked. Unless you feel like bringing in some new information that hasn’t already been posted on this thread, of course.
I have NEVER EVER EVER EVER seen the Enterprise go to warp to take out a Romulan Warbird or a Borg Cube or whatever. SO IT’S NOT GONNA HAPPEN, OKAY?!? Sheesh… some people, they get a thought in their head and it just won’t go away…
Second, Federation shuttles should be considered null and void for this entire encounter, since it takes quite a while for a shuttle to be prepped, primed, and ready to launch. So give up on the “well, maybe a shuttle can do THIS… or THAT…”
Finally… I think there’s a significant difference between an X-wing and a Star Destroyer. If you notice, in “A New Hope”, there’re several laser blasts fired at an X-wing before it finally goes boom. So that’s another line of reasoning that’s dead.
Which leaves the Pro-Enterprise argument (as far as this thread is concerned) with what…? Data at a sensor board? Face the likelihood, people… the Enterprise is toast.
In the very first episode of ST:TNG ever, the Enterprise D fired photon torpedoes at the Q forcefield that was following it, while it was travelling at warp 9.7.
In the first-ever episode with the Borg, the Enterprise D fired phasers and photorps at a Borg cube that was also chasing them at warp speed.
In the OLD Star Trek series, for crying out loud, the Enterprise was chasing a Gorn vessel at Warp 8 and was locking weapons onto it (episode “Arena”), and the Enterprise was shown engaging in wargames with other Constitution-class starships, firing its phasers at them while at warp 5+ (episode “The Ultimate Computer”).
Porkins (Red Six) had his X-wing go down quite nicely as the result of a single hit. Red Leader fared likewise.
If you watch when TIE fighters engage an X-Wing, a near constant laser stream is fired (kinda like a machine gun). More than one of these lasers hits the x-wing, although in the film it only shows the fatal shot.
Snubfighters in the SW universe do not have shields that “absorb” energy, like the shields of capital ships. Since they have much smaller power generators, their shields “deflect” laser blasts, and cannot absorb much energy. A solid, direct hit from a TIE’s lasers could bring down the shields, with the next shot in the laser stream able to destroy the x-wing.
In another of these posts, I noticed confusion about “turbolasers” and the effectiveness of lasers on the Enterprise’s shields. Turbolasers do not use light-energy, but are instead plasma energy.
One more thing…the Star Wars encyclopedia describes a proton torpedo as a “proton scattering energy warhead”. I’m no nuclear genius, but I know that if protons are scattered, doesn’t that mean stuff blown up by a proton torpedo turn into hydrogen gas?
Photon torpedoes work by light-energy, proton torpedoes work by nuclear energy. Gee…which do you think would be more powerful??
Tracer, have you even read the rest of this thread? I already said that, yes, the Enterprise sure can fire weapons while in warp… AT OTHER TARGETS THAT ARE ALSO IN WARP. A Star Destroyer can’t go to “warp”. So give it a rest.
Wierddave:
s’ok… i was dealing with a rather upsetting programming issue, and didn’t mean to snap your head off. It was a symposium by NASA a few months ago (sorry, I don’t have the brochure anymore, so can’t be more specific)
Tracer:
if you know all those instances, you REALLY need to get out more my friend. turn off the TV and go outside… and it’s called SUNLIGHT.
As for tehg rest of you all, while i’ll still look in, I have realized it is the weekend soon, so I am going to go, LARP, watch anime, maybe even try to get a GF again. and NOT WORRY ABOUT THIS CRAP
<mwahahahahaha><runs off yaulping into the hills>
Heigh-Ho Donkey Balls, AWAY!
Yes, that’s a nice theoretical tactic you’ve developed. First problem: It takes continuous poundings on a Star Destroyer’s shields to even get them to flicker to 99% (And in Star Wars, ships do not get damaged until their shields are at 0%, unlike Star Trek where ships will get serious damage to engines, reactors, replicators, tractor beams, etc., even when the shields are “holding” at 60%). Second problem: Starfleet regulations prohibit them from first strike operations against unknown contacts. Third problem: The flight officers probably aren’t smart enough to devise that tactic until they realize the Star Destroyer doesn’t have the same warp technology. Imperial commanders, on the other hand, are trained to take advantage of every situation. It’s not uncommon for Imperial forces to promise goodwill and then turn around and stab right in the back. Think of the possibilities of the peaceful Federation trying to become friends with a treacherous Empire (This is all assuming they have never encountered before).
Nice argument on the surface, Bored, but it has no real merit to it.
Well, I haven’t read everything, and I’m no trekkie, but the ISD would dominate.
Think about it: 1.8 kilometers long, 18000 men on board (5000 troops, which outnumbers all ofthe enterprises crew, so cross transportation off the list) and something like 256 turbo laser, alon with a proportional number of ion cannons.
Compared to two oversized phasers and a dinky photon torpedo? Ha, I think not. And afterall, we all know Darth Vader could take down Pricard (or Kirk, for that matter) any day of the week. One handed. Sorry, but it’s just an unfair question: humanity in 350 years vs. “a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away”. I don’t think so.
~Dan
Well, who says that the enterprise would be destroyed by the first Volley? It is standard procedure to attempt first contact WITH SHEILDS UP. Sizing up such a vessal and obviously determining if the Enterpise could possibly destroy it in a straight fight is also part of standard procedure. When the first volley is unleashed and the enterprise is still alive it would simply warp away in retreat(even if it was warp 1 for all I care…) The SD would have no clue where they went. They could take a week or so and complete repairs while they devise the prementioned strategy(obviously since they didn’t pursure them in warp).
Bored’s and Tracer’s arguments would be perfectly sound if the Federation and the Empire had a relationship akin to the Federation and the Romulans’… but they don’t. All those plans of “going to warp and firing a volley of… etc. etc.” wouldn’t come up. It’s very easy to think “they could do THIS, or they could do THIS…” while you’re posting to a message board… (and I know this was a question of imagination, but there are certain boundaries to keep ourselves in)… but in the heat of battle, where you’re constantly taking a pounding, you’re too concerned about pressing the “fire” button to think of wild and unconventional tactics like that on the fly.
Also, for any future posts, I think that for the sake of this argument we should assume that the weapons/shielding of these two ships are roughly comparable… that is, we really can’t say that phasers are a thousand times stronger than turbolasers, or vice versa, since we really have no basis for comparison. I know this point hasn’t really come up yet, but it just occurred to me that it could bring about trouble in the future.
Also, I think it’d be cool if some of you other 'Dopers out there posted your own personal imaginary scenarios for this… particularly scenarios that have both crews briefly instructed on the nature of their foes (a scenario which would give the Enterprise a chance to try out unconventional warfare). I mean whole scenarios, not just “they could do this or that…”
First of all, isn’t that we’re all doing, including you? They could do this or could do that? We’re talking science fiction, so everything, including the tech specs, are open to interpretation. Give it a rest - we’ve already figured out you like Star Wars better than Star Trek. :rolleyes:
Secondly, the Star Trek folks are known for making up stuff “on the fly,” not just firing at will. The Picard Maneuver, for example, was thought up in the heat of a conflict with the Ferengi. Beaming O’Brien through another Starfleet vessel’s older-type shields was thought up quite spontaneously. Of course, we’re talking about dramatic license here, but it seems to me if you compare the two scripted universes, ST is far more creative than SW.
If your posit is that their technology is generally equal, then SW has the brawn and ST has the brains, and given the two, I think brains would win.
For one, that was NOT what you said in the post I was responding to. You said, and I quote:
Note that you did not say “a warbird or a Borg cube that wasn’t at warp”, you merely said a warbird or Borg cube, period. I pointed out that, in the first episode with the Borg in them, the Enterprise most definitely did fight a Borg cube at warp speed. (The Borg cube repaired itself immediately, but it was slightly damaged.)
For another, claiming that the Enterprise can’t engage sublight targets while travelling at warp speed is really grasping at straws. “Warp” is not some alternate universe like Hyperspace is – objects travelling at warp speed are just as much a part of our Einsteinian universe as sublight objects are.
Since it has been firmly established that (A) the Enterprise can fight at warp speed, and (B) the Enterprise’s weapons travel faster-than-light (or at least their photon torpedoes do – see ST:TNG Tech Manual), there is no (I repeat, NO) reason to suppose a warp-speed Enterprise couldn’t shoot a sublight target.
So it’s up to you to provide evidence to the contrary. (A line like “They’ve dropped out of warp, we’ve lost weapons lock” would be sufficient.) I’m waiting…
