ESPN has a list on their website naming “the best” athletes of the past 25 years. Brett Favre is not on the list. Lawrence Taylor is, as well as a couple more disputable folks. Is there anyone on this message board that can think of 24 better athletes than the man who started more games than consecutively at QB than anyone else? John Elway and Dan Marino were both on there, both of whom are having their records smashed by Number 4. It’s craziness! What’s your opinion?
Here’s the full list of, I think, 35 chosen athletes and the columnist from the previous post picked 25 from that. No Favre!!! I can’t believe it, still. I like the new SDMB format, btw.
Well, if it’s your position that ESPN has erred, you have to do two things:
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Demonstrate Favre belongs on the list, and
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Demonstrate it with more than just “Favre rules!”
To my mind, it’s quite reasonable to conclude Favre is NOT one of the 25 greatest athletes of the last 25 years, even within the limited confines of the scope of this list (it’s restricted to American athletes, except they throw in a few Canadians to get the NHL into the mix.)
Let me put it this way; the list comprises 25 athletes from allsports, not just football or not even just the Big Four team sports. How many football players do you want on the list? If you’re drawing from all major pro and international sports, there’s really no possible way you should have more than two or three football players. And they have SIX, which IMHO is absurd; there’s already way too many football players there.
There’s no way in hell they picked the right 25 people, anyway; selecting Florence Griffith-Joyner over any number of athletes who weren’t mysteriously turned into men overnight is absurd, the selection of Alex Rodriguez over any number of more qualified ballplayers is ludicrous, and the pick of Dale Earnhardt is a silly sop to the truck-drivin’ crowd. But their picks being dumb doesn’t mean Brett Favre’s would be any better.
Objectively speaking, can you really make a case than Favre is clearly a better pick then either of the other three quarterbacks, Marino, Elway and Montana? I don’t think so. Marino’s statistics are superficially better; granted, Marino never won the Super Bowl, and he couldn’t run, but can you really say it’s clear Favre was a greater quarterback up to 2004? Maybe he’ll retire a greater quarterback, but… as for Joe Montana, Montana has better numbers AND he won four Super Bowls. You can’t reasonably say “Favre was greater than Montana,” can you? I will grant Elway’s pass completion percentage and yards per pass don’t match Favre’s, but in the time period cited (1979-present) he played more games - it’s not ESPN’s fault Favre is still in mid-career - and you cannot fault Elway’s playoff record.
Maybe you could make an argument that avre was a little bit better than any of those three guys, but it’s not a clear injustice, and there’s still too many football players on the list.
Incidentally, I can’t be bothered to rank all 25, but my top five would be:
- Wayne Gretzky
- Martina Navratilova
- Lance Armstrong
- Michael Jordan
- Sugar Ray Leonard
You make excellent points, Rickjay. I didn’t consider the fact that they were trying to mix it up a bit, throughout all sports. Favre is ahead, statistically in many catagories (No time to cite today, but who cares), but Marino and Elway played longer and are excellent choices. It wouldn’t quite be right to replace them. I just wanted to replace Mike Tyson, Dale Earnhardt or LT with Brett. Too many footballers already, though.
I don’t think much of any list of “best athletes” that doesn’t include Secretariat.
The list was of those from 1979 to 2004. Secretariat was before that time. And in defense of Dale Earnhardt, how many dominated their chosen sport the way Dale did? Not many. He was more that worthy to be on the list. And a little trivia, who is the only quarterback to throw 6 interceptions in an NFL playoff game? Oh, and the same quarterback’s last pass in each of his teams last 2 playoff losses ended in interceptions.
racer72- Favre, and I’d put Steve Young on that list before I put him.
RickJay- Jordan is fourth? How do you figger?
[QUOTE=Jimmy Chitwood]
racer72- Favre, and I’d put Steve Young on that list before I put him.
Steve Young doesn’t even compare statistically to Favre (though “best athelete” would include intangibles as well as stats and Favre is Mr. Intangibles). Check out this link . While you’re at it, check out Favre and Marino . Marino, yes, is at the top, but Favre isn’t far behind. Also, consider the wide receivers these men have had (Young’s best was Jerry Rice Favre’s best go to guy was Robert Brooks). Favre has had some very good running backs, as well, in Dorsey Levins and Ahman Green. If he hadn’t had such good running backs, as was the case for Marino, he would be higher up in the passing attempts/completions stats. Think about the intangibles and Favre is in the top three QB’s (Starr and Unitas ahead of Brett) of all time, IMHO.
You know, those weren’t even updated stats on Favre. Here are the stats from this past season. Here are some more tid bits about the record breaking year Favre had from this season on ESPN.com.
The only other QBs to lead the league in TD passes four times were Johnny Unitas (1957-60), Len Dawson (1962-63, 1965-66) and Steve Young (1992-94, 1998).
…the 12th time Favre has thrown four TDs in a game. His career-high is five, which he’s done three times.
…tied Marino’s record of 10 consecutive seasons with at least 20 TDs
You know, it’s surprisingly difficult to find these updates stats. I’m probably just not looking in the right places.
With 119, Favre tied Johnny Unitas for fourth on the NFL’s all-time victory list for quarterbacks (He had 6 more during the regular season. This was week 9)
Jimmy, I place Jordan where it is largely because I’m not absolutely convinced he is the greatest player to ever play his sport. He is certainly the greatest player in his sport in the last 25 years; to my mind, however, someone who in the last 25 years established themselves as the best in their sport EVER ranks above him. Gretzky is obviously the greatest hockey player of any 25 years, and you could make a pretty strong argument that he is the most dominant athletes in the history of North American professional team sport, period. Martina Navratilova is the greate female tennis player to ever hold a raquet. Lance Armstrong is, I believe, the finest cyclist to ever star in his sport.
Michael Jordan… well, I dunno. I’m not certain he was as dominating as Wilt Chamberlain, who was not quite the scorer Jordan was (over the coruse of his career the same number of points per game, but they scored more points back then, so in context Jordan was better) but was a far greater rebounder. Maybe Jordan was better, but you can argue he wasn’t.
You can make the same argument for Shaquille O’Neal; I know Shaq isn’t as beautiful and pleasant to watch as Jordan, but Babe Ruth wasn’t as graceful as Devon White and Wayne Gretzky wasn’t as graceful as Yves Cournoyer. Shaq by any statistical measure is as dominant as Jordan; three fewer PPG, but he takes way fewer shots to get those points and he scoops up more rebounds. Granted, his career doesn’t have quite the length.
Gretzky and Navratilova are CLEARLY the greatest ever in their sport. By a mile. Jordan is not quite as clearly ahead.
sadnil, sure, Favre led the league is passing TDs four times, Marino only three times. But then, Marino led the league in passing YARDAGE five times, Favre only twice; isn’t that just as important a measure as TDs? Picking and choosing your ordinal rankings is slippery stuff. A guy named Gavy Cravath led the major leagues in home runs more times than Willie Mays did. Jarome Iginla has more NHL scoring titles than Steve Yzerman. Doesn’t mean Cravath and Iginla were better players than Mays and Yzerman, does it?
Rickjay, I agree 100 percent on Jordan, Gretzky, and Navratilova. You make great points. However, Marino leading the league in passing yardage five times is not as impressive, due to the fact that the Packers have had some very good return specialits over the years (Desmond Howard was unbelievable). The yards are not as important as TDs considering points win games and not yards. Again, the yards accumulated by the Packers through the air has been great, yet they have had a couple of fantastic running backs which get loads of yardage. These are important distinctions, I believe, because when you’re talking about two guys who are so close statistically and two of the best at their position ever, every stat that Brett has over Marino is important. Especially when you consider how long Marino played. Brett probably won’t play as long. Also, it can be argued that leadership and the intangibles are even more important than stats. Joe Montana, who isn’t at the top of most stats (exception of playoffs) but he was the most fantastic leader and so smart. It’s similar with Bradshaw, who is not a statistcal marvel but led his team to four (I think) Super Bowls. Favre is the ideal athlete when you consider leadership, skill, strength, heart…I’m sorry, I know it doesn’t matter much what I think, but I feel very confidently that Favre should be on that list. Though, to replace Marino or Elway wouldn’t be quite right, either.
Hey, I haven’t seen you guys mention Tiger Woods. Is he not the greatest golfer of all time? Sure, he’ll need to win a major every year for ten years or so to pass up “The Bear” but who doubts he’ll struggle with that? Also, his athletisicm is unsurpasable. My top six list of the greatest athletes of the past 25 years is as follows:
Armstrong
Gretzky
Jordan
Favre
Woods
Navratilova
This is tough. They really aren’t comparable. I think the different sports really messes things up. They are all the greatest.
sadnil, with all due respect, Favre just isn’t that good. I’m well aware of the numbers Favre has put up in his career in terms of yards and touchdowns. In fact, I’m looking at your linked statistics right now, but I can’t imagine why you’d think Favre’s were superior. For one thing, you conveniently neglected one of the most important numbers of all. Steve Young only had two seasons with more than 12 interceptions. Favre has had zero full seasons with less than 12. Young got hurt a great deal, which damages his overall portfolio, but when he played, you just can’t make a case that he wasn’t better than Favre. Significantly higher yards per attempt, a better touchdown to interception ratio by a huge margin, better completion percentage, and Young was a serious factor running the ball, which Favre has never been. What the stats tell me is that Favre has played a lot of games and thrown a lot of passes- that’s all he’s got on Young. There’s something to be said for longevity, definitely, but that something is not “He’s better than Steve Young.”
I think so many people got enchanted with Favre’s toughness and all that that they’ve been blinded to the fact that Favre just hasn’t been that dominant since the Super Bowl years. He’s cool, is what he is- flipping backhand passes with a broken rib, and stuff like that, but he’s not one of the all-timers. Just look at what’s happened to them every year in the playoffs since about '98- throwing big interceptions has become more common for Favre than big touchdowns.
RickJay, I’m not all that much of a hockey guy, so I guess I forget sometimes how much better The Great One was than everyone else. The one thing I do know about hockey, though, is probably my all-time favorite stat: of the 10 highest single season point totals, Gretzky has 8 of’em, and Lemieux has the other two. I think this might just be some school project website, but it’s all I can find. The most anybody besides those two has scored is 160, and Gretzky had 215 one year- he had more assists than anyone else had ever had total points. I don’t even watch hockey, but I used to love to watch him.
Anyway, I still don’t know that Jordan’s not the best, but I can’t argue the reasoning.
Armstrong? Certainly not the best. Concentrating to win one race a year I just don’t see as significant as consistently having to win each week or each tourney like in other sports. And how much skill is there really involved in biking? I know it is amazing what they do. Anyone who can bike THROUGH the Alps is obviously a great athlete. But really, is there a strategy is biking? How much thought goes into it? Don’t football and basketball involve many more different skills necessary to become good at these than biking? Some of this is biased towards the sport they play. There is no way around that. I mean, Dale Earnhardt? Really, a better ATHLETE than any other number of people not on the list? I don’t buy it. WOuld anyone put a great BOWLER on the list of great Athletes? I wouldn’t.
This gets into the whole debate, which has been done before, of whether one sport can inherently be more difficult than another to play well based on the rules of the game.
The one that offends me most is SHAQ. I don't care what line of bull the NBA tries to feed us, he's not a great ATHLETE. HE's a very gifted athlete for someone his size, but if he was not significantly larger than many of the other players in the game, he would not be as dominant as he is. I was NEVER a Lakers fan, but I'd put Jabbar ahead of Shaq if you're looking for a center. He won five titles in the 80s with the Lakers.I guess my list would include
Barry Bonds
Steffi Graf
Wayne Gretzky
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Carl Lewis
Joe Montana
Jerry Rice
Lawrence Taylor
Tiger Woods
As good as Brett Favre is, I can think of several quarterbacks who are or were about as good as he was in his prime (which he’s now well past, IMHO). I’m inclined to stick with athletes who thoroughly dominate their sports, who shatter (not just beat, but shatter) records, who’ve revolutionized their sports or positions, and/or who’ve led their teams to multiple championships.
Brett is one of many very good quarterbacks to play from 1979-2004. Is he head and shoulders above Marino and Montana and Elway? No. In fact, I can think of 6 or 7 other quarterbacks about as good as Favre. That’s not an insult to the man- I respect him, and certainly think he’s a Hall of Famer. But he didn’t lead his team to dynasty status (as Montana did), he didn’t revolutionize his position (as Lawrence Taylor did), and he wasn’t miles better than anyone who’d played his position before him (as Jerry Rice was).
So, to sum up the OP,
I’m so sorry…
“What about Brett Fav… re?”
…so sorry…
Well, aside from the sheer athliticism necessary to win a race six consecutive years, and the fact that the Tour de France is a team race (the top cyclist wins, but ask Armstrong some time if he’d finish even top 50 without his supporting cast).
If you’re going to argue that size determines skill, then I’m sure we’ll all be looking for your vote for Manute Bol and Shawn Bradley, both of whom are taller than Shaq. Muggsy Bogues, Calvin Murphy and Spud Webb were all three fine basketball players (some might say more than fine; I would not begrudge them that), and all three are under six feet in a sport dominated by height. Nate Archibald was six feet tall when he wore three pairs of socks; Allen Iverson manages, somehow, despite being thin as a rail and roughly six feet tall.
Skill is independent of height or size. It can help, sure, but ultimately if you’re seven feet tall and you have no coordination, you’re not going to do well in any professional basketball league. If you’re six feet tall and you can handle yourself as well as Iverson can, then you’ve got a lot more hope.
I would have to see normalized (i.e. take away Magic and Worthy’s help, for one) stats on Jabbar’s career before I put Jabbar ahead of Shaq or vice versa. But I’d also have to see Bryant-less numbers. And I’m inclined to put Mikan and Chamberlain ahead of both of them, though obviously that would have to be a list allowing for a greater time slot.
To make a list such as this and not include Edwin Moses is the greatest injustice. He dominated his sport (the hardest single event in track) for the first eight years that this list encapsulates - he did not lose one race.
There are ten hurdles placed 35 meters apart. A world class 400 meter hurdler would average 13 steps between the first 7 or so hurdles, then begin to take more steps to finish the race. It’s 13 steps rather than 14 because an odd number will produce the same lead leg (which is important because of the turns - alternating increases distance traveled). It’s an event that requires the speed of a quarter miler, the strength of a half miler, and nimble feet needed to negotiate the three foot high barriers. Moses was the first man to complete a race in 13 steps; I believe that he was the only man to do so until Danny Harris did it in the late 80’s (the same year he ended Moses’ unbeaten streak IIRC). He would surely have won the gold in Moscow (as if his forced absence from one meet should diminish his accomplishments).
Iampunha, I think HomerIU was trying to say that Shaq should have been and be better. With dominating size and shape, he should put up near Wilt “The Stilt” numbers, granted with effort. It seems as if Shaq never met the potential expected of him out of college and that is almost a let down to some folks. He certainly does a good job, but HomerIU and I seem to agree that he’s not within the cream of the crop of centers because he isn’t the best baller. He’s just a big dude who gets great position underneath.
Favre has been hands down better than Young. Compare Young’s best two or three years to Favre’s. Compare their worst years if you want. Then find some stats regarding their offensive lines (not an easy task, though). I’ll bet you’ll find that the offensive lines Steve had were much better in any given year than Favre’s (with the exception of the past two years). Consider the fact that Young had much better receivers every year than Favre. People talk about Favre’s interceptions, that’s because he has had a habbit of brining the team back from deficits and that gives an allowance of interceptions. If your team has to get away from the run in order to get big yards and score in the final two minutes, you have to throw it up. Plus, he has had so many lame receivers over the years that possibly a third of those interceptions were due to receiver error. Look at Terry Glenn’s season last year and watch the three or four times the ball bounced off of his chest because he didn’t catch with his hands. Look at Javon Walker last year not running correct routes. I’m sure Rice had a tough time bringing in the ball properly and running routes, too…yeah. Anyway, Favre has always been a better leader than Young. How many comeback victories are Young known for compared to Favre? I’m not trying to say that Favre should replace Montana, but I’m darned sure any coach in the league on any given day would take Favre over Young. Ask any sports reporter(who watch a game or two so don’t knock them) who they would take in any game. Just because Favre stumbled in a couple recent playoff games doesn’t diminish his greatness. Another thing, Young had some excellent defensive lines, as well, which takes pressure off of your QB when he has a lot of time to work with. I could go on, but you should probably consult someone in the Pro Football business before you say Young was ever better, or even as good as Favre. Also, if you are considering their recent loss to the Eagles, consider the fact that the Packer defense let them get a first down on 4th and 26 to tie the score at the end of regulation. You think Favre was under some pressure? Watch that interception play again and you might notice Javon Walker switch his route while running down the field. Maybe Favre made him adjust to a bad through, but more likely, Javon ran the wrong route, again.