Eternal Damnation....Eep.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@Triskadecamus

Sin is that which comes between you, and God. Destruction is not a punishment, it is your natural end state, as it is for all other things, living, or non-living. Sin simply keeps you from the miracle that God has promised to you. Piety, Sanctity, Charity, are all wonderful things, but they are simply things of the world, like all other mortal things. Love God. Love each soul you meet, as if that soul were God Himself. One day, it will be.

Put that way, it does make Hell (i’m going to use that term to stand in for all the notions of “bad place” that there seem to be, not just flames and pointy-fork having demons) seem a bit more realistic; it’s what we will all, eventually, go to, without the gift that is given by God. But surely this is still showing him to be a petty god; he gives this gift only to his friends and the people who like him. And the problem with “accepting” the gift of love that he gives us, we need to believe in his existence.

@Triskadecamus

Salvation comes to us from God through Christ, and immortality is a consequence of divine love. It isn’t a club, it isn’t a test, it isn’t a bank account with a balance. It’s what God chose to give us, if we would only take it. It is Love. Pure. Simple. Given freely.

Here’s a hyopthetical situation:

I’m your friend, so I want to give you a box of chocolates. These aren’t just any chocolates, however, they’re the best in the world. As i’m such a good friend, I choose to share this with you.

However, i’m invisible. And mute. So I can stand in front of you all day with my box of chocolates, waving my arms around and trying to get your attention, but it’s not going to work; you don’t know i’m there. As far as you’re concerned, not only do I not exist, but also my chocolates don’t exist. This doesn’t stop you, though, from accepting smaller, less good boxes from other people who are your friends. Maybe you’re aware that i’m trying to give you chocolates, for some reason. Maybe you’re not. But I can’t get that across to you.

What I mean by this is; If to be good is to accept God, or God’s gift of love then ok. This is a clear goal. But, if like me you don’t know that God exists, then it is impossible to accept that gift. Maybe he’s waiting with his box of chocolates; maybe he’s not. But I can’t accept something when I don’t know that it exists.

And, if we go by your example, God is still only willing to save those that like him. You can be good, but not accept God’s gift of love (because you don’t know that any gift is being made) and thus, you’re not saved. Which is very harsh because it seems, under that system, many good people are going to fry.

@Polycarp

Hypothetical situation set up as a parallel:

Now, I claim, and have proven (by evidence some people feel doesn’t meet the standard of proof) to have a fantastic panacea gerontological drug that will prevent your dying of old age. (Just call me Ira Howard ) It does take some work on your part; you have to abstain, for example, from eating grapefruit or asparagus, or climbing mountains over 2,500 meters in height. (Never mind why those have bad side effects; I’ll explain if you’re really curious, but I do list them as contraindicators.)

Fair enough so far- i’m willing to believe God is willing to give us this gift (if he exists). I’m willing to believe that he sets out rules for taking this gift, because by following those rules, we’re really helping ourselves, too. All the acts of a benevolent god, so far.

="Polycarp"And I will send you this miracle drug completely free. I don’t demand you like me and write me on how you’re doing, though I’m glad to get such mail and will send you back letters of support as you pursue your extended, grapefruit- and asparagus-free life.

Ah. Here’s where the analogy starts to break down; You DO demand I like you. Half the posters on this board have said that a vital attribute for getting the “miracle drug” is that you accept God’s love, and love him in return.

@Polycarp

The one thing that is inherent in your benefiting from this is that you trust me. I’ll provide you with evidence of people who have been using my drug and are surfing and dancing in their eighties, and a statistical summary that shows that nobody who has consistently used my drug has died except by fatal accident. But none of that will do you any good if you don’t believe it and trust me that my claims are in fact valid. (Yeah, there are a lot of snake oil salesmen out there; but I want you to be sure that my product works, and I’ll provide you with sound evidence that it does.

From my point of view, there is no such sound evidence. As I do not believe in God, I do not believe the information contained in the Bible (though the stories in there can be a good guide), nor do I believe in the existence in miracles. Basically, you seem to be saying that in order for it to work, I need to trust you. I don’t believe you exist; how can I trust you?

@Polycarp

That doesn’t mean I’m making any weird demands on you about “having blind faith in me” – just that the fact of the matter is that for it to do you any good, you have to trust me enough to write and say you want to get on the program and take my drug, and be willing to abstain from grapefruit, asparagus, and climbing high mountains, so that it will work.

So if I don’t need blind faith, why must I accept the whole of your offer? For example, I may be perfectly willing to trust you, and accept your offer, and follow the rules in order that it will work. That doesn’t mean, though, that I agree with your world view, or that I agree with your viewpoint on who is welcomed to take your miracle drug. And if I don’t need to agree to all of your ideas to take your drug, then surely I can take it and still perform bad behaviours that aren’t covered by your list of what is medically needed for it to work.

@Polycarp

Am I asking something odd here? You’re free not to believe me, of course. But you’ll die of old age.

Blackmail. Believe in me, worship me, that’s the only way to avoid death. And you seem to be unable to look at this from a non-Christian point of view. Imagine that God doesn’t exist. How am I to accept the offer that this non-existing being is giving me? I can’t. It doesn’t exist. And this is how most athiests (and some agnostics) think. For you, it’s case of “God does exist, and everyone who doesn’t believe has yet to find him”. Please take this into account; from your perspective, our beliefs are a point of view not based in fact. It is the exact same thing for us.

@Polycarp

Do you see the parallel between that and Christianity? And does it make sense under those terms?

I do see the parallel. And yes, it makes sense. But that doesn’t make it right.

It all seems to boil down to needing to believe in God to recieve salvation. I don’t. Many others don’t. We’re not all bad. We may not eat grapefruit or asparagus, or climb too tall mountains, just down to our own moral code of what is right and what is wrong. But we will recieve no gift; on the contrary, we’re going to Hell. Which is far too harsh.

I feel I need to point out again; the people on this board defending their beliefs do have some interesting, and valid, points. But this is not a debate on “What behaviours are should we exhibit to appease God and get salvation?”. This debate is about whether, in any case at all, being sent to Hell is a just behaviour by a benovolent god. I don’t think it is.

[Kythereia]

@Revenant Threshold

It all seems to boil down to needing to believe in God to recieve salvation. I don’t. Many others don’t. We’re not all bad. We may not eat grapefruit or asparagus, or climb too tall mountains, just down to our own moral code of what is right and what is wrong. But we will recieve no gift; on the contrary, we’re going to Hell. Which is far too harsh.

Not really, IMHO. From The Big Cheese Jr:

@Matthew 16:31-46

31: “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32: Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
33: and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
34: Then the King will say to those at his right hand, Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35: for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36: I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37: Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
38: And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
39: And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’
40: And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41: Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
42: for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43: I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
44: Then they also will answer, Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45: Then he will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’
46: And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

We meet God’s love, embrace it and accept it, through loving others. It’s the second of the greatest commandments: Love thy neighbour as thyself. I figure if you do that–if you love others and give whole-heartedly to them of yourself–it doesn’t matter if you’re atheist or Buddhist or Muslim or whatever.

[kanicbird]

1. You’re good. Into Heaven you go, my friend.
2. You’re bad. To Hell with you, foul being.

My take on it is:
1 - you can try to do it w/o God (which you will fail)
or
2 - you can turn to God, admit you can’t do it w/o Him, and accept him.

So Hell is not so much a place of eternal damnation, but more of a place that you will end up in if you don’t want God’s help, which just happens to be inhabited by other creatures who also don’t want God’s help, which makes it a place that you don’t want to be.

[Thudlow_Boink]

(Psst. Kytheria. My Bible doesn’t have a Matthew 16:31-46. What you quoted is in Matthew 25:31-46. Just so nobody goes looking for it and ends up thinking you made the whole thing up.)

[Kythereia]

@Thudlow Boink

(Psst. Kytheria. My Bible doesn’t have a Matthew 16:31-46. What you quoted is in Matthew 25:31-46. Just so nobody goes looking for it and ends up thinking you made the whole thing up.)

Wooops. Thanks for the heads-up. :smack:

[dotchan]

(Christian here, heavily influenced by C.S. Lewis et. al.)

Let’s say, for example, that I have a terrible temper problem. I might be able to hide it, or moderate it, or make some effort to be civil right now because there are all sorts of dampers in place (laws, society, my own conscience) that motivates me towards not being a Pit-worthy person 100% of the time.

However, one day, those dampers disappear. I can act however I want with impunity, ad infinitum. I think you’ll agree that it wouldn’t be a pretty sight.

As for why God doesn’t save everybody before they kick the bucket…shrugs Who knows? He’s God. He’s allowed to be arbitrary.

[Thudlow_Boink]

Since someone brought up C. S. Lewis, I’ll go ahead and recommend the book I like to recommend to anyone wrestling with how Hell might “work” or how a good God could let people spend eternity there: The Great Divorce. It’s a—how do you describe it—philosophical novel? parable? allegory? fantasy? Anyway, it doesn’t claim to describe what Hell and Heaven are like, but it’s a speculative look at what they might be like and why people might wind up one place instead of the other. (The title is a reference to William Blake’s “The Marriage of Heaven and Hell”; the book has nothing to do with literal divorce.)

[cosmosdan]

@dotchan

(Christian here, heavily influenced by C.S. Lewis et. al.)

Let’s say, for example, that I have a terrible temper problem. I might be able to hide it, or moderate it, or make some effort to be civil right now because there are all sorts of dampers in place (laws, society, my own conscience) that motivates me towards not being a Pit-worthy person 100% of the time.

However, one day, those dampers disappear. I can act however I want with impunity, ad infinitum. I think you’ll agree that it wouldn’t be a pretty sight.

As for why God doesn’t save everybody before they kick the bucket…shrugs Who knows? He’s God. He’s allowed to be arbitrary.

PArdon the pun, but what the HELL are you talking about? Was there a* point* you were making?

[Revenant_Threshold]

Firstly, i’d like to say that i’m not currently entirely sober, so if I sound odd…that’s why.

@Kythereia

We meet God’s love, embrace it and accept it, through loving others. It’s the second of the greatest commandments: Love thy neighbour as thyself. I figure if you do that–if you love others and give whole-heartedly to them of yourself–it doesn’t matter if you’re atheist or Buddhist or Muslim or whatever.

Alright, this does seem benovolent. Still, however, there’s going to be some people who don’t love their neighbours; murderers, rapists etc. And I don’t think they deserve to go to Hell. A VERY strict punishment is in order, sure, but incredible torment? for eternity? No.

@kanicbird

My take on it is:
1 - you can try to do it w/o God (which you will fail)
or
2 - you can turn to God, admit you can’t do it w/o Him, and accept him.

So Hell is not so much a place of eternal damnation, but more of a place that you will end up in if you don’t want God’s help, which just happens to be inhabited by other creatures who also don’t want God’s help, which makes it a place that you don’t want to be.

Again, this belief system implies belief in God. Not only that, it seems to imply that you can only be good if you believe in God; Do you not think that non-believers, or believers of different faiths, cannot be held to the same moral standards as yourself?

Anyway, as I said, this implies belief in God. Without which, we go to Hell. Where we “don’t want to be”. Which is a far too harsh punishment.

@dotchan

As for why God doesn’t save everybody before they kick the bucket…shrugs Who knows? He’s God. He’s allowed to be arbitrary.

There’s a word for people with power who do whatever they want; Dictator.

And ta, Thudlow, i’ll see if I can find a copy of that anywhere.

Again, I feel I need to point this out; in all of the systems so far described, there are people who are going to Hell. And i’m saying, in ALL of these cases, it is too harsh a punishment. Please, give me an example of the type of person who you feel, in your opinion, would be justly sentenced to the Hell that you personally believe in.

[cosmosdan]

@Kythereia

Not really, IMHO. From The Big Cheese Jr:

We meet God’s love, embrace it and accept it, through loving others. It’s the second of the greatest commandments: Love thy neighbour as thyself. I figure if you do that–if you love others and give whole-heartedly to them of yourself–it doesn’t matter if you’re atheist or Buddhist or Muslim or whatever.

Can I get a big Amen!! {why yes I can}
Amen!!

Jesus says this several different ways in the NT but the meaning is this simple and beautiful.
I remember a story about a young man raised in a certain church. At a young age he became a minister and did all the good things that a good Christian man should do. After serving in the church for years he realized one summer that he didn’t have a deep abiding love for people. He did the “right” things, but it was out of tradition and a sense of duty, not form a real love in his heart. This disturbed him so much he almost gave up his ministry, but in thinking and praying about it he realized that this profound realization was a new begining point for him.

MAny people, Christians included, figure “well this is who I am and how I feel about things. It’s just me. I can’t help that” I don’t agree. We have a certain foundation and we decide what to build on it. We can cultivate love, and we can understand how to love more and forgive more. You don’t have to accept any concept of God to decide to love and decide to learn how to love more.

[FriarTed]

@Revenant Threshold

Again, I feel I need to point this out; in all of the systems so far described, there are people who are going to Hell. And i’m saying, in ALL of these cases, it is too harsh a punishment. Please, give me an example of the type of person who you feel, in your opinion, would be justly sentenced to the Hell that you personally believe in.

Different types of Hell discussed-

Eternal Torment
Eternal Exile
Eternal Self-Absorbtion
Eternal Anguish in God’s Inescapable Presence
Eventual Eternal Extinquishing

I find the first option inconsistent with the Love & Justice of the Biblical God, the latter four quite consistent.

The type of person who would deserve Eternal Exile/Self-Absorbtion/Anguish in God’s Presence/Extinquishing - the type of person who will look God/JC in the Face with total awareness of Their Love & Justice, and refuse to open up to God’s Love.

Also, those who deliberately refuse to help the suffering or who deliberately create undeserved suffering. Oppressors, predators, child abusers.

However, I believe that God’s Love will even give them full opportunity to receive Grace, and I have to acknowledge the possibility that they may well avail themselves of that Grace.

[cosmosdan]

Triskadecamus and Poly I appreciated your thoughts and analogies but I don’t think they dealt with the main point the OP makes about hell and eternal punishment. I guess what you’re both saying is that hell is just the result of our own choices. Not chooseing God’s love or not goving up asparagas? I agree in part and think much of it is about our own choices, but the OP is asking, why should hell be the consequence? Would a benevolent God make it be that way?

I wonder the same thing. Your explainations didn’t satisfy the questions I expressed in my post.

[cosmosdan]

@Revenant Threshold

Firstly, i’d like to say that i’m not currently entirely sober, so if I sound odd…that’s why.

Um…yeah I noticed you were sluring your typing a little. :rolleyes:

Again, this belief system implies belief in God. Not only that, it seems to imply that you can only be good if you believe in God; Do you not think that non-believers, or believers of different faiths, cannot be held to the same moral standards as yourself?

Non believers can be incredibly good and any love, kindness, compassion, and charity they express is every bit as valuble as any Christians or any other believers.

Again, I feel I need to point this out; in all of the systems so far described, there are people who are going to Hell. And i’m saying, in ALL of these cases, it is too harsh a punishment. Please, give me an example of the type of person who you feel, in your opinion, would be justly sentenced to the Hell that you personally believe in.

No Hell in anything I described, but let me elaborate with the confession that I am still learning and any ideas are still evolving.

Tris said

Mortality is a natural state.

I don’t agree. It may be only a semantic difference but IMHO an important one.
I think we are eternal spiritual beings. What Jesus and others have tried to teach us is that we can wake up to that reality and live accordingly. “You will know the truth and the truth will set you free” “The kingdom of Heaven is within you”

Nothing is required other than waking up to the truth of who we really are, although that is a process that takes time, effort, faith, and commitment. I tend to believe it happens over several lifetimes. An analogy might be going through the grades in school until you graduate.
As far as hell goes, I don’t see an eternal punishment. Hell may be the struggle we go through to awaken. It can be painful to face the truth about ourselves and to let go of our illusion. As I mentioned before. Going from the darkness into bright light, can feel like fire. We have to do it slowly.

“Yeah but Dan, what if I don’t believe that stuff you’re dishing out?”
It’s perfectly okay. Be true to yourself and what you believe right now. Go forward willing to learn more and grow more. Your path will reveal itself to you in due time.

[Triskadecamus]

@Revenant Threshold

And, if we go by your example, God is still only willing to save those that like him. You can be good, but not accept God’s gift of love (because you don’t know that any gift is being made) and thus, you’re not saved. Which is very harsh because it seems, under that system, many good people are going to fry.

This is an imprecise restatement of my example. It isn’t that God will only save those that love Him. He offers Salvation to every soul He loves, and He loves each and every soul. It isn’t a club. It isn’t a test. It is love, given freely.

You say that you do not know that love is offered. I weep for you, that you have never known love, but I am sure that you will meet the Lord sooner or later, and you will be offered that love. But, in the meantime, love is all around you. Accept it, practice it, give yourself over to it. For the Love of God is not different. It is the love of a child, and the love of a parent. The love part is the important part, the theology is not really important.

Goodness and kindness and love are good things, even without a philosophical justification. You know that, even if you cannot prove it. Do it. God will love it. And He loves you. The most important thing to remember is that what you do, and who you are to those who you meet on this earth represents your path toward the end. Be who you hope God is. Be who you think Christ is. Or, if you cannot believe in God, or Christ, then be who you think you should be, if the only goodness in the universe is the love you personally create. It works even without the religion part.

But, He is.

Tris

“You must be the change you wish to see in the world.” ~ Mohandas K. Gandhi ~

[RedFury]

@dotchan

As for why God doesn’t save everybody before they kick the bucket…shrugs Who knows? He’s God. He’s allowed to be arbitrary.

Perfect example of a faith-based non-answer that means nothing at all.

“God works in mysterious ways.” Now there’s news.

Thanks for the insight.

---

@Triskademus

Or, if you cannot believe in God, or Christ, then be who you think you should be, if the only goodness in the universe is the love you personally create. It works even without the religion part.

Tahnk you for bringing some common sense into this “debate.”

Point being, be true to yourself and do the best you can for others while you are here. The rest is all speculative BS – on all sides.

I don’t know, and neither do you – though based on what we have empirically, we die and it’s the end of the line.

Use your time here wisely.

[cosmosdan]

@Triskadecamus

But, in the meantime, love is all around you. Accept it, practice it, give yourself over to it. For the Love of God is not different. It is the love of a child, and the love of a parent. The love part is the important part, the theology is not really important.

Goodness and kindness and love are good things, even without a philosophical justification. You know that, even if you cannot prove it. Do it. God will love it. And He loves you. The most important thing to remember is that what you do, and who you are to those who you meet on this earth represents your path toward the end. Be who you hope God is. Be who you think Christ is. Or, if you cannot believe in God, or Christ, then be who you think you should be, if the only goodness in the universe is the love you personally create. It works even without the religion part.

But, He is.

Tris

“You must be the change you wish to see in the world.” ~ Mohandas K. Gandhi ~

It seems we agree in the essentials.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@cosmosdan

Non believers can be incredibly good and any love, kindness, compassion, and charity they express is every bit as valuble as any Christians or any other believers.

Ok. I’ve met a good few people who thought that a person who believed in God was always, always gooder than someone who didn’t. Maybe it terms of what God likes and dislikes, fine, but many people have a similar moral code, and can do just as much good while they’re here, without believing. Nice to know it’s not every Christian that’s up themselves

@cosmosdan

As far as hell goes, I don’t see an eternal punishment. Hell may be the struggle we go through to awaken. It can be painful to face the truth about ourselves and to let go of our illusion. As I mentioned before. Going from the darkness into bright light, can feel like fire. We have to do it slowly.

Ah, see, now I think this would be the actions of a benovolent god. I can’t remember where I’ve heard it, but there’s a story that says when we die, we go to see God and he looks at us, with all of our graces and all of our flaws. He sees you entirely, and you have to stand there and (probably, we’re not all good) feel shame in a lot of the stuff we’ve done. And then he forgives us.

Seems good to me; appropriate punishment for murderers etc, appropriate benevolence for lovely nice people. The only thing we have to face would be ourselves, which, really, is probably the fairest judgement possible.

Still doesn’t mean I believe in him though

This is an imprecise restatement of my example.

Apologies. Looking over your post, I think I did rather get the wrong end of the stick. If I understand correctly now, you’re saying that love, all love, is God’s gift. And that, by loving others, and acccepting love in return, we are loving God. Ok, that seems fair.

@Triskadecamus

The love part is the important part, the theology is not really important.

If the theology isn’t important, why are there so many seperate sects and belief groups? Seems some people don’t share that particular notion. I do, however; this sounds again like the priorities of a benevolent god.

@Triskadecamus

Goodness and kindness and love are good things, even without a philosophical justification.

Well, no. You need a philosophical justification. I can’t remember the exact quote, but didn’t someone once say “Take the universe, smash it into pieces, hammer at it, break it down into it’s smallest parts, and crush it into dust, and then show me one atom of justice”. This is love, not justice, but the point still holds; there is no such thing as a physical particle of “goodness” - and i’d imagine that most believers of all faiths would agree you can’t have an physical representation of “goodness”. What we do have, however, is belief in deities, moral codes, or a drive to do what’s right - these are all acts from our own core (or soul, if you prefer the term), as spiritual or psychological beings, and as such, we’ve created our own “philosophical justification” for why we should do good, and why being good is the right thing anyway.

@Triskadecamus"

The most important thing to remember is that what you do, and who you are to those who you meet on this earth represents your path toward the end. Be who you hope God is. Be who you think Christ is. Or, if you cannot believe in God, or Christ, then be who you think you should be, if the only goodness in the universe is the love you personally create. It works even without the religion part.

Alright, fair enough. But all of this does seem to be more along the lines of “What you should do to be good” rather than “Do any people deserve Hell, or equivalent place in your philosophy”.

@Redfury

Tahnk you for bringing some common sense into this “debate.”

Sorry, Redfury, but this really isn’t the place for common sense anyway. Common sense tells us that when we die, there’s nothing; but as i’m sure it’s been pointed out before, common sense can be very wrong.

@Redfury

Point being, be true to yourself and do the best you can for others while you are here. The rest is all speculative BS – on all sides.

Quite true;we have no idea for certain what will happen after we die. Even the most hardcore believer cannot know for certain. It’s even worse for the athiests; there is no possible way to prove a deity doesn’t exist - if there isn’t, the point at which you’d know is also the point you expire.

But surely the point of a debate is partially speculation? A debate can be on purely logical and scientific ideas, with each premise leading to the next, but in this case that’s just not possible. Is it then, not worth debating? I think it is, because it has a significant influence on how we act while we’re alive.

For a third time I think I need to point this out again; This is **not ** a debate about whether God exists, or what we need to go in order to go to Heaven. This debate assumes God exists, that at some point we will die and be sent to either “a good place” or “a bad place”. And, I, personally, do not think that being sent to the “bad place” is just punishment for anyone. That said, here’s the only person that seemed to address that; FriarTed.

@FriarTed

Different types of Hell discussed-

Eternal Torment
Eternal Exile
Eternal Self-Absorbtion
Eternal Anguish in God’s Inescapable Presence
Eventual Eternal Extinquishing

I find the first option inconsistent with the Love & Justice of the Biblical God, the latter four quite consistent.

I don’t. In fact, i’d imagine that for different people they’d have different priorities in terms of suffering. A believer in God who’s done wrong will probably feel worse in the “eternal anguish in God’s presence” one, for example. But in all of these cases, look at what you’ve written; It’s eternal. Forever. The human mind can’t hope to get to grips with the concept of “infinity” and yet that is how long we will be punished for. Not only that, but there is no salvation; once you’re there, you’re there for good, mate.

@FriarTed

The type of person who would deserve Eternal Exile/Self-Absorbtion/Anguish in God’s Presence/Extinquishing - the type of person who will look God/JC in the Face with total awareness of Their Love & Justice, and refuse to open up to God’s Love.

This assumes God/JC are just. I see no proof they are; that’s what this debate is about, the actions that they undertake after we die do not seem either just or benovolent. And if we’re asked to believe in someone’s justness when they have little, well, i’m afraid i’m not going to. So off to Hell with me.

@FriarTed

Also, those who deliberately refuse to help the suffering or who deliberately create undeserved suffering. Oppressors, predators, child abusers.

Ok, here, I think, is where we get to the crux of the matter; I don’t believe these people deserve eternal punishment. I believe they deserve incredibly harsh punishments, yes. I think it would be just to send them to Hell for a period of time, yes. But not forever, and not with no chance of salvation.

@FriarTed

However, I believe that God’s Love will even give them full opportunity to receive Grace, and I have to acknowledge the possibility that they may well avail themselves of that Grace.

Aha! So there IS salvation for all! That’s excel…oh, no, wait, we get one chance. When we die. And no chance after that; once we’re “sentenced” or “placed appropriately” then that’s it. No more chances to repent, placed in horrible pain (of some sort) for eternity.

I’d like to make an analogy, if I may;

Say we live in a world where there is only one ruler. By all accounts, he’s a lovely guy. If he knows something is going wrong, he will try to help that person personally. He is willing to sacrifice himself in order to save his people, because he just loves them that damn much. All in all, a perfect ruler.

Except that you have no chance of removing him from power, or escaping him; he’s a dictator, benevolent though he may be. And the punishment for all crimes is the hanging of you and your family, and everyone you know. Kill someone? Hanging. Steal a loaf of bread for your hungry family? Hanging. Kill someone accidentally in self-defense? Hanging. Molest a child? Hanging.

Now, i’m sure you’d agree that those examples, hanging is a way over the mark punishment; even for murder or child molesting, everyone you know as well as you will be killed.

My point is this; Hell is, in all cases, a punishment that is a huge overreaction. It is not a benevolent action, and it is not in keeping with the notion of a “benovolent” God.

[kanicbird]

Revenant Threshold

Again, this belief system implies belief in God. Not only that, it seems to imply that you can only be good if you believe in God;

2nd part 1st, it does not imply any such thing, however you have inferred it. It implies that no human can be good, not believers, nor non-believers. We are all ‘sinners’ . Since the concept of sin does require a God, then yes it does imply a belief in God. It does get me when ‘religious’ people activally shun people who have ‘sinned’ - well a clarification, This does not include people who proudly ‘wear their sin of their sins on their sleaves’

Do you not think that non-believers, or believers of different faiths, cannot be held to the same moral standards as yourself?

I don’t understand what you mean by this.

Anyway, as I said, this implies belief in God. Without which, we go to Hell. Where we “don’t want to be”. Which is a far too harsh punishment.

(This is getting into IHMO, but then again most of the thread is). This is a issue of free will and self determination. This was granted by God to humanity, or some would say that Adam and Eve ‘took it’ from God. Either way we are left to choose our paths, God will allow this.

There are many belief systems, usually involving cyclic existence (reincarnation), when one tried to purify ones soul to reach nirvana (heaven), this is usually done by leading harder and harder lives till you have paid for all your transgressions. Since we can’t live perfect lives, it would seem that this process would be unending, and progressively harder/miserable - which except for hope, sounds very much like a view of hell.

This is what we, if left by ourselves, would bring upon ourselves. God is giving us a ‘OUT’, if we want to take it. The option is there if you want it, the door is open. It is humans that left God, it is humans that should be the ones to return to God.

[Triskadecamus]

Searching through the rubble of the smashed universe for an atom of justice will not produce an atom of justice. Neither will it produce an atom of philosophy. To quote a well known philosopher, (well, well known around here, anyway ) “It isn’t in the atoms.”

I knew a man who had a simple view of heaven. He knew his father was in heaven. If you asked, “Where is your father?” He would answer, “In heaven. With God . . . And Superman.” He was quite sincere. God must love this man, for he was a sweet, kind man, with a loving nature, and a staunch belief in Christ, who was also in heaven with God, and Superman.

Now almost no one believes God condemns the simple minded for their inability to comprehend theology. It’s to obviously and inevitably cruel. But the equally obvious fact to anyone who is intelligent is that compared to God, simple minded is far to generous an estimate for me. God’s philosophy must reach every soul he has made. It isn’t something hard to understand. It doesn’t require being a member of a club, or passing a test.

Christ said that we must become as little children. Little children seldom discuss the Abigensian heresy, or the doctrines of Transubstantiation, or Immaculate Conception. Children can learn love, and give love, and be loved. How is God not able to love as does a child?

I don’t claim not to have a Philosophy, I just don’t think it’s very important.

Tris

“And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.” ~ 1 Corinthians 13:13 ~

[Revenant_Threshold]

Ok. This thread is getting more and more into a “hey, here are my beliefs!” kind of thing. Let me try and make it a bit more simple for everyone:

1. What do you, personally, believe Hell( or the “bad place” that some people will inevitably go to) is like? What form would it take?

2. Do you agree that there are some people, no matter how small an amount, that will be going to this Hell?

3. What type of people are going to go to this Hell?

• Let me give you some examples of people:
  • An Athiest, who is nevertheless a good person.
  • An agnostic, who does not know one way or the other whether God exists, but is a good person.
  • A devout believer, who is, however, also a murderer.
  • Someone who is religious, but of a completly differnt faith to yours (Hindu vs. Christian, rather than Methodist vs. Catholic)
  • A murderer and child rapist, who, at the end of their life, meets God and thus repents.

4. Do you think that, by either sending the bad people to, or rescuing the good people from Hell, God is doing what is right?

5. Do you think that, by either sending the bad people to, or rescuing the good people from Hell, God is being benevolent?

I don’t want an analysis of what is a “bad” or “good” person; I just want to know whether, in any cases at all whatsoever, you can tell me of a person who deserves to go to the Hell that you believe in, for eternity with no hope of salvation. Because if you can’t, then no matter what his other great virtues, God is not a benevolent deity.