Eternal Damnation....Eep.

Great Debates
41

Did you say gooder? Hmmmm
You point out what I see as an unpleasent side effect of dogma. For some there seems to be a need to believe, “my religion is the right one” or “the truest one” and that leads to an attitude of slightly superior even while they are telling you how God loves everyone equally. There’sa also the idea that There’s also the attitude that Christian love, and/or the love of Jesus is superior to the love of atheists and any other religion. When Christians do something kind and generous it’s because of the love of Jesus. When athrists do something equally kind and generous, it just isn’t quite as good.

I do think this attitude puts a lot of peolpe off, but there are plenty of wonderful Christians and other believers who don’t think that way.

Um, well yeah. I mentioned it earlier in this very thread, but perhaps you’ve heard it someplace else as well. I don’t think it’s a matter of “and then” he forgives us. I think it’s a matter of us giving up the illusions that keep us from God and each other. One example, If seeking the approval of others is more important to us than being loving and truthful we only damage ourselves and stall our own growth. Hopefully at some point we begin to realize this and make a conscious choice to change our attitude. Life’s experiences will guide us and teach us if we pay attention and have the courage to challenge ourselves. As Lib often puts it. We decide what we value most. Consciously or unconsciously.

Right, we have to face the consequences of our own choices. Personal responsibility. Although I use the term God it’s almost a metaphor for me. I don’'t think it’s nessecary to see God as a seperate being out there somewhere apart from ourselves. Infact I’d say that that attitude of God as the seperate being who judges us only impairs our understanding and growth. If you don’t want to think of God as him then consider thinking of the sum total of us. Buddhism has a concept of the Universal mind or something like that.

To some doctrine is very important. It’s ridiculous why some churches have split off into other sects with slightly different doctrines. Of course more than a couple were started by a scam artist with a good story and a new twist on an old story. It’s interesting to me that even even a bogus story can be sincerely helpful to some people.

I agree. What I think is cool is that it doesn’t matter what your foundation is, except in how it reflects in your choices and how those choices affect the world around you. One Christian is a homophobic bigot who exudes pious arrogence. Another is a sincere kind and loving person who dedicates themselves to being of service to others. Both have a foundation of Christianity superficialy at least, but the deeper motavations, “what you value most” must be different. The same for all other belief systems. IMHO it would be better to discuss common values and principles, such as justice, honesty, courage, compassion, mutual respect, which span all belief systems religious and otherwise, instead of diving ourselves into factions or religion, race, sexual preference, gender, etc.

Really? In saying that I don’t believe in Hell as a place of punishment or a God who does judge and punish us, have I not dealt with it?

I do assume God and JC are just. The well from which all love is drawn, and the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If a doctrine doesn’t sense to me along these assumed guidelines then I reject it.

42

You sumation of reincarnation is way off. You don’t lead harder and harder lives until you pay for your transgressions. You surrender your illusions and as you do you become more peaceful and loving, and more conscious. You, through practice and experience, learn to surrender the illusion that we are seperate from God and each other. You learn to surrender the illusion of fear for this brief mortal life and live in the eternal.

You say we can’t lead perfect lives and yet we are asked to “Be perfect as your father in Heaven is perfect” and to" leave the foundation of repentance from dead works and continue on to perfection"

Did Jesus lead a perfect life? How is a perfect life defined?

This may be a bit of a hijack. If it’s to far off subject we’ll leave this discussion for another thread.

43

[QUOTE]

sorry for digressing. These threads tend to get that way.

I tend not to believe in it as a place of punishment.

The question that remains open for me is are there souls who will not choose love and truth even after coming to full awareness of it. Some believe all will eventually wake up.

Since I don’t believe in Hell in that way I’ll skip the other questions.

What?? Or if they can’t then perhaps the whole concept of Hell and how it relates to man relationship with God, needs to be rethought. It doesn’t mean God is not benevolent.

Or, are you saying that a concept of a benevolent God and a concept of Hell cannot coexist in the same belief system without one contradicting the other?

44

Yeah, the “God works in mysterious ways” is a cheap dodge, but if God really were a petty dictator who puts people into heaven or hell basen on his own whims, what would we be able to do about it?

(Of course, I don’t deny that the above scenario described would suck, so I tend to take his word that he’s a nice guy and plays by his own rules.)

45

You have the market cornered on reincarnation theory? There are many different belief systems which use cyclic existance. Some contend as one ‘advances’ to advance further you need more challenges in one’s life, which generally means a harder life.

46

Sorry, cos. You did talk about the original question; I guess I just forgot to post replying to it. My posts in this topic have been kinda long :rolleyes:

True. If you don’t believe in Hell, or the concept of a place where the “bad people” go, then God can be benevolent.

So if there are these souls, what happens to them?They die, and then…what?

Yes, exactly; you’ve put it much better than I did. That, in a nutshell, is my arguement. And I don’t mean just “pointy-fork wielding demons and fire” Hell, but I use the term to encompass all concepts of “I reject the love of God for some reason, thus this happens to me”.

Absolutely nothing. Other than playing by the rules, which have been set down by someone all-powerful who will not change his mind, we’ve got no hope. And, while I agree that the Christian doctrine of “love thy neighbour”, the main point, is a worthy and noble cause, that still doesn’t change that it’s being set out by a dictatorial deity.

47

That’s assuming Hell means one thing for all people- and that Hell is irrevocably eternal. Various people will experience various “hells”, which is, I think, why there are a variety of possible Biblical interpretations of Hell. Btw, “Hell” is not a Biblical word- there is the Hebrew Sheol & Greek Hades, which seem to be a holding cell, Gehenna/the Lake of Fire, which is the Final Punishment for the Condemned, and Tartarus, the prison of the fallen angels.

Hanging is a disproportionate punishment for murder or child molesting? Not to me!

I don’t know that only one gets one last chance after death, there may be many who don’t even get one last chance as they blew a myriad of chances on Earth. However, I do believe that God will reconcile with any being that wants reconciliation. The Gehenna Fire may be a painful process of coming to accept Christ & God, no matter how long it takes. Then again, if a person persists in hatred/defiance to God, the glories of Heaven will seem but a mocking Hellish agony to him. It’s not what God does to punish that person; it’s what that person experiences because he will not open to God’s Grace.

48

Which reincarnation theory would that be specifically? Any cite for that?

49

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]

I don’t know. According to the Myth/metaphor they have to go away from God because that’s what they’ve chosen. Not as punishment but because it would be to painful to remain in the light after choosing the darkness. I tend to think all eventually wake up. I mean hey, it’s eternity, what else you got to do?

I agree with you. It never seemed compatible to a benevolent loving God to me either. I think what some people are saying is that it’s not so much a matter of disobeying the rules, or rejecting the love of God in a “now you’ve made God mad” sense. It’s more along the lines of rejecting love and truth as the path to follow, and bearing the consequences of those choices. Still, to me eternal damnation because you’ve used up all your chances doesn’t make sense to me. It makes more sense that eventually {over several lifetimes} we’ll begin to wake up and choose love and truth consistantly.

50

I agree. If you’d read what I said, however:

Just you being hung? Alright. I don’t believe in the death penalty, but I can see how they would deserve it. But not their friends and family; that’s my point, it’s a disproportionate response. As is Hell for “sinners”.

In many belief systems, there’s nothing you can do; once you’re there, you’re stuck. Hence the whole “no salvation” part. But if that isn’t part of your own belief system, fair enough.

Ok. Under that belief system, be it right, I believe God can be benevolent. Like you said, eternal damnation doesn’t really make sense. Your system would seem to be a benevolent one; I don’t agree with you, and I doubt that’s what will happen, but I don’t think i’d be complaining if it did. :stuck_out_tongue:

51

I am still waiting of proof that you have cornered the market on reincarnation. But yes I do:

http://www.comparativereligion.com/reincarnation2.html

and
http://www.comparativereligion.com/reincarnation.html
gives a overview of some of the reincarnation theories.

Now please tell me why you think you are the only one who decides on which reincarnation theory is the only one.

52

I freely admit that I am not any kind of expert on the different teachings of reincarnation among the religions that teach reincarnation. Your representation of reincarnation may indeed be close to some teachings, but none that I’ve seen.
specifically

You imply that most reincarnation belief systems are as you describe them. In my limited study I haven’t found any that teach we lead harder and harder lives until we’ve paid for our “sins”
The link you provided is hardly a credible presentation of evidence since it appears to be a Christian apologist site for the purpose of discrediting Reincarnation.
I noticed they didn’t mentionn that reincarnation was taught by Judism and early Christianity.
If I was trying to make a point about what Christianity taught would you think an anti Christian web site to be reasonable unbiased credible evidence?

53

I don’t know where the idea came from that one goes to Heaven or Hell came from after death, but if one believes in the Genesis account, the punishment for sin was death, there was no mention of loss of a soul or a reward in a heaven. This idea came much later.

I think after people began to see that both good and bad people died, they must have decided that the good went to a Heaven and the Bad went to Hell a place of eternal torment They then decide that animals died and since they regarded man as a higher being, that man had a soul, and animals and plants didn’t.

Monavis

54

Not in Judaism.

Judaism is very much focused on doing what’s right in this world, rather than on the world-to-come, so there isn’t really one accepted answer to what happens after death. There are a lot of different Jewish opinions on the afterlife. Some, and not just sixties-liberal Jews like me, believe in reincarnation (there are Hasidic stories of reincarnation, for instance in the book Jewish Tales of Reincarnation).

There is a Jewish hell, called Gehenna, but people don’t stay there for more than a year. In fact, there is a custom of saying the Mourner’s Kaddish (the prayer said by Jewish mourners) for your parents for eleven months, rather than one year, because the maximum sentence in Gehenna for the most evil people is twelve months, and you don’t want to imply that your mother or father was evil enough to be sent to Gehenna for the full twelve months ;j

The majority view in Judaism since the time of the Talmud (completed about 5th century AD) has been that the righteous of all nations have a place in Olam Ha-Ba, the World to Come . So no, we don’t believe that non-Jews automatically go to hell.

55

Judaism has a rather interesting take on this one.

To repent of a sin that has harmed other people, you have to seek forgiveness from the people you harmed, not just from God. The process of seeking forgiveness from other people should include restitution for any damages you’ve caused them, if at all possible.

Just being sorry and praying to God to forgive you isn’t enough. God can only forgive you for sins between you and God, not sins between you and another person.

56

Apologies. I wasn’t really sure in the first place; my ignorance has been fought :stuck_out_tongue:

This is an interesting thought; it should be just, because it’d be harder to gain forgiveness for the more heinous crimes. And saving possibly all (not just Jews) does sound like the actions of a benevolent god. There do seem to be a wide range of opinions on what happens, though, like you said.

I’d say that a God of your particular belief could be both just and benevolent, then. Just depends on how bad Gehenna is, really.

57

That was the point.

And the Jewish answer on how bad Gehenna is: “Nobody knows”. We don’t go in for fire-and-brimstone sermons with elaborate speculations on what Gehenna is like.

There are some stories in Jewish Tales of Reincarnation of the recently deceased being offered the choice between Gehenna or another incarnation on Earth to atone for their sins. Most of them actually choose Gehenna, IIRC- it might be hellish, but you can’t accumulate any more sins there, and it’s over in a year at most, after which you go to Gan Eden (the Garden of Eden, or the Jewish Heaven).

58

Pretty interesting. I learned something, thanks.

59

Incidentally, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Chinese mythology (at least some varieties of each) also have non-eternal hells. Here’s an interesting description of hell, or Feng Du, in Chinese mythology.

60

It’s just one of many things that point out the idiocy of an organized religion of any kind.

For example, let’s take the Ten Commandments. If we pull the religous gibberish out of them, what’s left is a pretty good set of guidelines for living together in a harmonious society. I try to live a life that follows those guidelines: I don’t lie, I don’t steal, I don’t murder, I don’t covet my neighbor’s wife’s ass, etc. But because I don’t follow number one on the list: “I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.”, then according to Christianity, I’m gonna fry for eternity.