If everyone were to be guided by Eve, the world would be a better place.
Care to share an explanation of “fives on a chair”, “sausaging”, “grenade man”, and “double logos”? Either I have very bad manners or these customs are not observed around here . . .
Well, you failed, I’m afraid. All those questions merely showed you to be silly. And yes, I have had men tip their hat to me, quite recently, in New York. I found it charming.
Oh, but darling, how do you know I wouldn’t guide you off a cliff? I can be very perverse sometimes . . .
but you would do it NICELY… that is the difference.
I still must reiterate the etiquette is a poor substitute for politeness. It may be etiquette to stand when a lady enters the room, and it would be polite to do so should someone who would enjoy the action enter the room, someone like Eve perhaps. But it would be boorish to stand when someone whom you know would be embarrassed by such attention entered the room. If you think of etiquette as a set of rules, you must understand that those rules are at best guidelines for dealing with people you don’t know, and knowing when to break them in order to be polite is of great importance. Anyone who uses etiquette as a way to make others uncomfortable is a true boor, much worse than someone who through laziness makes others uncomfortable.
Not to be circular, but isn’t the pointlessness of etiquette the point? Standing up to acknowledge someone’s presence typically has no practical value, which is why it serves so well to convey respect. If there was some tangible benefit to be gained from standing to acknowledge someone’s presence, then doing so could be seen as just an attempt to gain that benefit, and wouldn’t be useful for conveying mutual respect.
Tipping your hat, wearing a tie, and saying “please” and “thank you” have no practical benefits, which make them perfect ways to show respect.
I find it strange that you consider certain actions which happen to be considered polite in our society to be pointless and arbitrary, while others, such as shaking hands, you call practical. Huh? What made you draw that line?
So, it’s not really a code…it’s more like guidelines 
I’m sorry, I couldn’t resist. As to my feelings on manners:
I am married to man who has them, and wouldn’t give the time of day to anyone who doesn’t. It’s one thing to decry certain customs as outdated or unnecessary, but please believe me, if you* show up at a formal wedding wearing sweatpants and a t-shirt, one or both of the following things will happen:
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You* will be asked by someone to leave (by the wedding director, mother-of-the-bride- someone who is appalled that you obviously don’t have enough class or consideration to dress for an occasion)
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Someone will assume you* are mentally ill (because what person in their right mind attends a wedding in sweatpants?)
Not one single person will be congratulating a sweatpants-wearing wedding guest on their show of individuality and refusal to conform to silly manners.
- intended as a generic ‘you’ and not toward any one poster
FB
Actions such as these that make other people feel comfortable around you, and think better of you, have the practical benefit of increasing their self-interest of enjoying your company.
The essense of politeness, courtesy, etiquette, etc. is that it is in your own self interest to increase other people’s self interest of associating with you. This applies whether the association is five seconds at the sales counter, an ongoing friendship, or what have you.
(“You” is used in the generic sense, of course.)
Going back to what boofy_bloke said, if the courtesies are taken without sincerity, then of course it is lying. The point, of course, is to be sincere about treating the other person with courtesy, so that they will return the favor. It’s all too Human to treat someone poorly once they’ve treated you poorly. So why start the vicious cycle in the first place?
IMHO, I feel more comfortable in a tuxedo than I do in sweats. Anybody up for a formal DopeFest?
Aside: FaerieBeth, you rock! Excellent timing and delivery with your movie quote.
In the same way that extending your middle finger with the others folded down displays aggressive disrespect: because everyone in your culture has agreed that’s what it means. There is nothing inherently disrespectful about flipping someone the bird – it’s just a finger, for heaven’s sake. But you know, because of the culture in which you were raised, that such a gesture is intended to offend. Just as gestures like standing to greet someone are intended to display respect.
We humans are immensely visual creatures. Body language conveys more meaning than mere words. Much of the guidelines of etiquette are ways of establishing a commonly-understood language of movement that everyone knows how to interpret, even though it doesn’t come naturally, the way smiling or folding your arms does. How you behave non-verbally, including how you dress and actions you choose not to take, speak volumes about you no matter what your intent.
Huge gift to them, you never know where life will take you and it is brilliant if you have the tools in advance. Hope she is also teaching them to be laid back enough that they won’t have a heartattack if they go to somones house and they put a wet teaspoon in the sugar bowl too If I ever have kids I want them to be equally comfortable eating beans and toast in somones flat as in a tailed coat at a formal function. They should be equally able to converse pleasantly with a strangers wife as laugh at a loud fart on the way home from the pub.
When Clinton visited Oz he flashed a two-finger V for victory sign, recalling the days of Churchill. Unfortunately it means “Get fucked” so everyone here had a good laugh. Likewise The Bird, until it became common in USA movies and TV no-one here knew what it meant (specifically). And the OK circle gesture can mean “You’re a homosexual who enjoys anal sex” in non-Anglo countries.
This says to me that any gesture to show respect because it is etiquettially correct is silly*. Getting annoyed at someone for not standing up is silly. Expecting someone else to behave according to one’s own guidelines is silly. If one wants to express one’s respect for someone, go right ahead, stand up, tip the hat, say it out loud, but don’t expect the same behaviour from anyone else. That’s not only egocentric it’s probably rude.
If etiquette is the art of making other people comfortable, whose comfort gets precedence - the old woman walking into the room or the boofy bloke sitting on the couch?
My point is that we should all just get along with each other, treasuring each new discovery as a chance to grow and become a better person.
*Silly: adj. not sensible, illogical, serving no purpose.
BOOFY –
So you, apparently, understand that gestures and actions convey meanings, as when Clinton provoked a laugh by meaning to “say” “victory” but instead “saying” “get fucked.” What does that have to do with manners?
But you know what it means now, right? You understand that when an American flips you the bird, he or she is disrespecting you, right? It is disrespectful because there is a social understanding that the gesture is rude. Now you, as a literalist, may refuse to invest a physical gesture with any meaning, just as you might insist on refusing to invest the mouth noises we all call “speech” with any meaning, either. But you can hardly expect the rest of society to ascribe to your view, which boils down to willful obtuseness of social custom.
. . . So it would be rude to do in those countries, where it is given a rude meaning by society. What does that have to do with manners? Biting one’s thumb was rude in the time of Shakespeare (see Romeo and Juliet: “Do you bite your thumb at me??”) but isn’t now. So what? Who said “rude” wasn’t dependent on the society and time one is in? It obviously is.
You have singularly failed to explain why it is silly. It’s like you think that if a gesture or action doesn’t have some immutable, set-in-stone meaning, it can’t have any meaning at all. This totally disregards the fact that no form of human communication is that immutable. People in China will not understand an English request for a bagel – probably won’t know what the hell a bagel is. Does that mean the English speaker isn’t making any sense at all, to anyone, anywhere?
The one who isn’t you. Hence the term “other people.”
With respect, it’s hard to imagine how you could make many new discoveries when you’re so clueless about human behavior that you refuse to acknowledge the existence of non-verbal communication. But to a certain extent, you’re right, because IME most people who are negligently rude (as opposed to willfully and maliciously so) eventually have the new discovery that their behavior is alienating people in ways big and small and they themselves are losing by it (like when the girl won’t go on a second date because of atrocious table manners, or when the job is lost because the interviewer found your style or manner “too casual”), which gives them a chance to grow and become a better person by acquiring some manners.
The one who ain’t you, silly. You know, the other person. If you’re the boofy bloke, you stand up, greet the lady, help her find a seat (if no others are available, you offer her your seat on the couch), and if you’re the host you offer her refreshments. If you’re the lady, you thank the boofy bloke for his kind attentions, and refrain from commenting on his sweatpants, even though the desire to ask him whether he’s so fat he needs elastic waistbands, or if he’s just too lazy to bother with a zipper and buttons is slowly driving you insane.
fives on a chair - If you and your friends are watching tv or performing any other seated activity, you may call “fives” when you get up to go to the bathroom or get a beer. That will reserve your seat for 5 minutes. After that it becomes up for grabs.
no sausaging - If your friend is talking to a girl at a bar or party, you do not go over and butt into the conversation (also called “swordfighting” or “cockblocking”).
grenade man - A courtesy of distracting or hooking up with the fat or ugly girl so that your friend can pursue her hot friend. (also called being a “wing man”)
double logos - Wearing more than one article of clothing that has a particular logo, be it sports team, your fraternity, or college. You want to let people know you are a fan, not Super-Fan #1.
For those people who insist on not following any etiquette, I ask you - are you receiving the reaction you desire from other people? Are you a welcome addition to the party or do people always seem to be on your case? It never ceases to amaze me when people act or dress in an outlandish or inappropriate manner and then are surprised by the negative reactions of other people.
. . . Do society dowagers glare at you through their lorgnette and say, “well, really?”
Does this apply to wearing the same logo, or all logos? Is it okay to wear college-logo sweat pants, a fraternity letter T shirt, and a pro sports team cap?
The rule (I mean, guideline) may vary depending on the place. If the college / pro sports team is playing a major game, I would expect to see the fans attending the game (or a game-watching party) wearing as many team logos as they wish.
What I find interesting is that all the anti-etiquette folks on this thread are nonetheless using proper capitalization, punctuation and grammar in their posts. All of which are also arbitrarily agreed-upon, arguably outdated rules that one might say no longer apply in modern communication. After all they come from the days of hand printing presses and quill pens, no?
Occasionally some kid comes on here to argue that they are more comfortable typing in that leet nonsense or in all lower case (because reaching for that Shift key is such a chore :rolleyes:). They invariably get lectured that conforming to the rules and style of conversational writing is important because it shows a respect for the reader - and we’d probably all agree that it is inviting just such respect back. It is also an acknowledgement that we care enough about getting the message across to go about sharing that message in the way the most people will understand.
So that presumably agreed upon, etiquette and manners is simply what we call the grammar and style for social conversation. Of course if you wear clean, neat, and pressed sweatpants and t-shirt to a formal wedding very good friends might understand. But should the burden be on them and their other guests to magically understand that your heart is in the right place and you are thrilled about their marriage? Or should you use the tools at your disposal, (i.e. dressing suitably to the occasion) to let them know you respect the importance of the day? If you do not rise when an elderly woman enters the room, she may with effort and thought and time realize that you mean no disrespect and that you do acknowledge her status. But why should she have to take the effort to figure it out when there are socially agreed upon ways for you to let her know, in a way you both clearly understand the meaning of?
Like in writing there are ways to make it easier on your audience to know what you are getting at - and ways to make it harder - and most reasonable people see the value in making it easier and so adhere to the rules. If you choose not to participate in the social grammar you are making it as difficult to be understood as if you used poor grammar in your writing. You apparently do conform to proper grammar, punctuation and capitalization. Why is one social construct something you cheerfully adhere to and another foolish and dismissible?
Finally, truly good formal wear should be comfortable, maybe not as comfortable as your sweats but certainly not torturous.
Twiddle
It’s generally the same logo - ie you can wear a fraternity cap with a Mets T-shirt and Adidas sweatpants. I’m a little hazy on the rules of brand labels. Generally you don’t want to mix an Adidas sweatshirt with Nike pants. On the other hand, ayou don’t want to dress head to toe in one obvious brand. It’s a delicate balance between looking like you are sponsored by one company and looking like a walking Nascar (because they are covered with sponsers logos).
Allowances can be made for Superbowls or college rivalry games. Stuff like that where want to acheive superfan status.