I was taught manners for a variety of reasons, which included making it so I wouldn’t look like a jackass in public, which would make me very uncomfortable, and so I would make other people at ease. The most logical sounding reason I was given when I took those etiquette classes, though, was this: it takes a lot more effort to convince yourself that society’s rules don’t matter than it does to display a little decorum. In other words, if I know all the proper manners already and can be gracious and comport myself in an admirable manner (table manners, dress, actions, speech, etc.), it takes a hell of a lot more effort for me to fly in the face of that knowledge and act like an ass just for the sake of making a point about how stupid society’s rules are.
For example, if I showed up at a friend’s wedding in kahkis or sweats, even if my friend didn’t think I was an asshole for doing so, his family and their friends no doubt would. It’d be a lot easier for me to put on a smart cocktail dress and enjoy myself while playing by the rules than it would be to have other guests glancing me up and down as I attempted to pretend that I don’t give a shit that a bunch of people I don’t even know are sending malicious glares my way. My friend or his or her family would probably be mortified by callousness. I would feel horrible being the center of such negative attention. And I would look like an utter moron trying to get people to agree with me that society’s rules are stupid while standing there in sweats while everyone else is in semi-formal. All of this could be avoided by taking two minutes - the same time it’d take me to find my sweats and put them on - to find a dress and put it on. It’s all about efficiency.
And as far as standing up when a lady enters the room, it is antiquated and unnecessary, but if I walk into a restaurant by myself and my fiance has already been seated to secure us a table, it helps a lot for him to stand up so I’m not forced to walk through the whole restaurant, peering down at everyone else’s table. It also makes him look polite, and prevents him from feeling like an idiot if he were to frantically wave his arms to get my attention and a crowded room.
I submit to all you generic you’s that manners/etiquette/common courtesy are the grease in the wheels of society, and are becoming more important than ever as our lives become more crowded and we are constantly dealing with people, people, everywhere.
His behaviour is moving away from “standing up because it’s a woman” and toward “standing up because it’s the most efficient way to communicate my location”. This is a good thing. Etiquette BLOCKS effective communication because it requires certain behaviour irrelevant of the truth (e.g. “Dinner was lovely”, “No, your bum doesn’t look fat in that dress” - hee, hee).
Most of my friends are already married so I don’t have the opportunity to investigate the cargo pants question.
Hey, I can be just as anal as anyone!
Seriously, folks, there’s a difference between RULES of communication and GUIDELINES of behaviour. ROC are part of the machine itself, like the laws of physics that let the engine in your car convert petrol into motion. GOB are overlaid onto the machine, like paint (although adding stripes will make your car go faster!).
PS People who can’t use apostrophe’s should be shot!
Ah, but why should I be the one to make the effort to understand HER ways? Surely if she has an issue about me not standing up she should (in a perfect world) come over and ask me why I didn’t stand up? Anything other than mutual understanding is offensive.
I don’t actually wear sweats, I’m just using them as an example, but you’re right about clothes being comfortable - in fact that’s most of the reason why I wear casual - but because formal wear is used so infrequently it is often not the same fit as it was when it was first purchased (it always seems to shrink, somehow). Likewise, capitalism has ended the days when everyone wore hand-made (and usually tailored) clothes so the old suit and tie don’t fit people who have not-in-that-size bodies (co-incidentally, people like me).
But why isn’t SHE offering me the same level of “respect” - in the end NEITHER of us will be sitting because we’ll both be offering the couch to the other person. ONE of us might as well sit and it might as well be me. Unless there’s some reason why women should be sitting while blokes stand… are they weaker or something?
My point is that these “rules” of behaviour were misunderstood. The “fingerer” thought that they were making a completely comprehensible sign with a clearly defined meaning. They weren’t. Miscommunication. “The President of the USA leaves Australia saying ‘Fuck you’” - how would that have gone down in Cold War Russia? Using body language as the primary means of communication can backfire.
Thats my point: we shouldn’t take offense or provide opportunities for people to offend us in this manner because it’s too easy for people to offend us without intending to. Isn’t that why some genius invented smilies - because pure text was to easy to misinterpret?
Silliness is not asking a Chinese for a bagel, it’s expecting them to provide it. Silliness is not having guidlines of behaviour but expecting someone to behave according to your GOB.
What “truth”? And why is the truth the most important thing? If dinner sucked, what do you gain by truthfully advising your hostess of that fact? Neither statement is an example of etiquette or manners, BTW, and neither is required. Etiquette arguably requires you not to unnecessarily hurt someone’s feelings or fail to acknowledge their efforts (i.e., “thank you so much for dinner,” “since you asked, I’m not sure that horizontal stripes are your best look,” etc.), but it does not require you to lie.
Wrong. If the mechanism of communication is the engine, then the social compacts of behavior we use while communicating is the oil that makes the engine run more smoothly. Manners are not merely decorative; they smooth the way through society by making people more receptive to our communications and raising their opinions of us. If we do not know each other well, then we judge each other on externals – how you dress, how you behave, how you treat other people. And we interact with each other based on those thousands of tiny judgments, conscious or subconscious. If you think the ability to affect such judgments is merely the “paint” of communication and social interaction, you are simply wrong.
Hilarious. The refrain of the manner-impaired: Me, me, me. Why should I make the effort? Why isn’t the burden on her?
What does this have to do with manners? And who said anything about manners being the primary means of communication? And surely you see that ignorance of local custom or etiquette is a pretty good excuse for failing to follow either, so long as the failure is not willful? So it’s all pretty irrelevant to the question of the worth of etiquette in a given society, where pretty much everyone can be presumed to know the general rules.
On the contrary; it is without manners – without an unspoken agreement about the broad rules of social discourse – that we risk offending each other continually. If each individual decides what is in his or her own mind acceptable behavior, that leaves everyone else at sea in determining how to approach and/or communicate without giving offense.
What? This makes no sense. If it is silly to not have guidelines of behavior yet expect people to abide by your (non-existent) guidelines of behavior – which goes beyond silly to being nonsensical – that by inference it is NOT silly to expect people to abide by broad existing guidelines of behavior, decided not by some single “you” but by societal consensus. And that’s what manners are.
If you truly do not understand why making other people comfortable and connecting with them makes life easier, then I doubt very much I can explain it to you. But as you consider the question, ask yourself how often you are asking or expecting something of the people with whom you communicate – whether it’s prompt, hot food from the waitress to accurate directions from the passerby to a date from that cute girl or guy. Even if a person is so self-interested that manners must be justified in terms of a positive payoff – there is one. You may not see it but it’s there. Who do you think has an easier time in this life – the rude person, or the polite one?
A character in a V. C. Andrews novel once said that proper etiquette is simply the Golden Rule put into practice-teach other people as you would want to be treated.
I couldn’t agree more.
People who say, “But being polite is snobby and boring and I don’t want to do it-I just want to be comfortable,” are simply showing their selfishness.
It’s not about the right fork or whether you serve white wine with lobster or not. It’s about being pleasant and considerate of the other person.
Look, she’s old and you’re presumably not. You give up your seat for the elderly because they are indeed often weaker and tire more easily. You then stand, or park your ass in the floor. You do not invite the elderly person to sit in the floor because they often have trouble getting up and down. The issue in this particular instance isn’t that she’s a woman, it’s that she’s elderly. It would be nice of you to give up your seat for a younger lady, especially if she’s wearing a skirt and will have difficulty sitting in the floor without flashing the whole room, but people won’t be quite so likely to think you’re a jackass. It is, in fact, polite for a young healthy person to offer his or her seat to any guest, regardless of age or gender.
And no, she won’t say, “Oh, no, please, you sit while I and my arthritis stand.” For one thing, she’s probably quite glad to take a load off, and for another it’s rude to make a flap when someone offers you something.
(And yes, there was a perception of women as being weaker than men that spawned the tradition of making sure ladies were all seated before gentlemen. Even though that perception is fading, women’s clothing and shoes tend to be ill-suited to standing around, and thus it’s still considered that men are better-equipped to do the standing.)
The well-mannered elderly lady would also not call attention to your lack of etiquette in not standing to greet her, as it is rude to call public attention to someone’s faux pas. People capable of shame would feel uncomfortable if they were accosted regarding their behavior in public, after all. It’s the same principle as not remarking on the previously mentioned sweatpants, even though the honest truth is that said sweats are thoroughly inappropriate to the setting.
And hey, those corsets and 40 pounds of yardage probably were more than a bit tiring to carry around. AFAIK that’s why women had the reputation of fainting a lot–because, frequently having their lungs confined so that breathing properly was impossible, they did faint a lot.
Boy, you hear that all the time in bars … “Jesus Christ, would you stop acting like a homosexual who enjoys anal sex! Why do you have to be such a homosexual who enjoys anal sex?”
I wholeheartedly agree with this. I’ll state my bias up front- one of my sidelines is doing speaking engagements at colleges and professional conferences on basic etiquette. I don’t claim to be Ms. Manners, but I cover most ‘common sense’ stuff- eating, mingling, dressing, etc.- the sort of things that young professionals need to know to ‘grease the wheels’ in communicating in the business world.
At the end of my talks, I always end up with this- "if you leave this room and immediately start pointing out where all of your friends have breached rules of etiquette, then you haven’t been listening. The worst breach of etiquette that you can commit is to point out the failings of others.
Etiquette isn’t about YOU. It is about everyone else. If you get into that frame of mind, it all makes sense. Sure, there are some archaic rules that have stuck with us- mostly because whatever their origins, they are either not harmful, or still helpful, if only as a standard that people can expect.
A lot of the anti-etiquette camp seems to boil down to ‘you’re not the boss of me!’ mentality. Guess what? You’re right. No one can force you to be polite. Etiquette must be an internalized process, or it’s worthless. Of course, being the boss of myself, I can refuse to associate with you. And that is your loss.
I think etiquette makes a lot of things a lot easier. Consider this: you have dinner at a friend’s house. The dinner tastes horrible. You’re given the choice of lying and saying that it was lovely or telling the truth and saying it tasted like shit. Which is easier? A little white lie that makes the hostess glow with pride and thank you profusely with the side benefit of you feeling good because you made someone else feel good, or having to soothe your hostess because you’ve just told her that her cooking tastes bad and having the disadvantage of wasting a lot of time because you said something so callous you really offended her and everyone else at the dinner? I’ll bet that if you go with option two, you will have hurt your hostess’ feelings considerably. If she starts yelling at you or starts crying, you’ll have to take the time to make her feel better. If you look at it from a practical point of view, this is a waste of time. You could be having enjoyable conversation with the people at the dinner, but, no, you’re wasting time because you made a mean, thoughtless comment.
While I may think that etiquette is what separates us from the animals, it can be considered from a more practical point of view. Using proper manners and etiquette is much more logical and efficient than not. If you use poor manners and throw etiquette out the window in social situations, you wind up wasting a lot more time trying to get people to stop being angry with you for your boorish behavior than you do if you were simply polite in the first place. You also have a lot more friends using proper etiquette than you would otherwise.
It’s also invaluable in business situations. No matter what anyone says, a lot of business is based upon who you know and who knows you. Good relationships with people equal better jobs. Business relationships are created and improved with proper etiquette. Also, I have yet to see someone who is self-employed get work by appearing unprofessional or being an asshole to the people he/she works for. That includes wearing a business suit during the first meeting, not acting like a slob if it’s a lunch meeting, saying please and thank you, telling this potential client that you had a wonderful time and look forward to developing the relationship even if you think he’s the biggest jerk in the world, etc.
And as far as clothing goes . . . Let’s say you attend a formal wedding wearing a sweatsuit, or even jeans and a T-shirt. Or, conversely, you show up at a picnic in white tie and tails, or an evening gown. You’re smugly thinking, “the hell with everyone else and what they think—I’m comfortable!”
But the hottie on your right, the possible job contact on your left, the Entertainment Tonight reporter over there, and your grandma’s gossipy pal are all thinking, “that person is mentally deranged/an asshole/a performance artist,” and there goes your potential nookie, job, social standing and your grandma will cry.
My nephew was killed a few years back. Some of his friends came to the funeral in cut-off sweatshirts, shorts, and dirty sneakers with no socks. And they eulogized him!!. I was appalled. They said that this was how they spent their time with him, he would have wanted it that way, blah, blah, blah. Most everyone else was appropriately dressed – if not in traditional funeral dress, they were at least properly shod!
Some people equate dressing appropriately with wearing a medieval torture harness or something. It ain’t that tough. If you don’t like formal wear, don’t go to fancy restaurants. But please have the courtesy to attend weddings and funerals in the proper attire.
I hate to think that I’m old fashioned at only 39 years old, but I’m very hard pressed to think of any reason why someone wouldn’t extend common politeness to another human being. A woman comes into a room with no available seats, I’m going to get up and offer her mine. I do it not because I believe she’s incapable of standing or the weaker sex, I do it because she may actually like to sit down and be comfortable. I’m putting her comfort ahead of mine, which shows that I’m a considerate human being. Now, she can politely decline, in which case I retake my seat, or she can be offended, in which case it is her that has the problem (her offense) and not me (since I didn’t intend to offend). If I’m being polite, please don’t be rude in response because you resent my politeness. That’s infantile.
As to proper clothing, wearing the clothing that fits you and the occasion is another no-brainer. I would no sooner wear jeans and a t-shirt to a wedding than I would white tie and tails to garden. Clothing and grooming make an impression and why on earth wouldn’t you want to put your best foot forward? You’re not being cutting edge, arch, or cool - you simply look unkempt and ridiculous.
I’m sorry Kalhoun but to my mind this is what is wrong with etiquette (as opposed to politeness). If ( and this is a big IF ) your nephew would have wanted his friends to be at his funeral “in cut-off sweatshirts, shorts, and dirty sneakers with no socks” then they were correctly and propperly dressed. If this were the case then to suggest that his friends were wrong in doing what the departed would have wished is boorish.
plnnr would you offer your seat to a man because he may actually like to sit down? If not, why not? Personally I offer my seat to anyone who may have more need for it than me (they are older, carrying more stuff, I’m geeting off soon,…) but the sex of the person should not come into the equation in these supposidless less sexist times. Though as a means of flirting, by all means offer a seat to someone you find attractive, but don’t fool yourself into thinking this is done out of politeness or etiquette.
Bullshit. Etiquette is about giving a positive impression. Others expect you to behave in a particular way, and when you don’t, you fall in their opinion.
Yes, I’d do the same for a man given the circumstances you described - I just used the woman as an example because, in my experience, they have been more likely to take me up on the offer.
See, I think the gesture should have been made to the survivors. To me, it is an act of respect. I’m all for respecting the wishes of the dead on matters of disposal of the body, what type of service, etc., but when 97% of the people show up dressed respectfully and the other 3% look like they’re on their way to a clam bake, I see a statement that didn’t need to be made.
When my Mom died, we donated her body to the Anatomical Gift Society. Most of my own family didn’t bother to dress for the burial of the ashes. I just don’t get it. What’s so hard about it?
First of all, Kalhoun, I’m sorry for your family’s loss.
Second of all, I would be extremely apalled, too. Dressing so sloppily for such a somber occaision as a funeral is kind of disgusting. Would it have killed those guys to drag a pair of khakis out of the closet and put on some clean shoes and socks? They would have been comfortable, as Kalhoun’s nephew may have wished, and at the same time would have avoided offending his family. It would have taken the same time to do that as it would to find nasty, dirty clothes. Such sloppy dress is distracting in the extreme. Particularly since they were eulogizing him - I wonder how many attendees were wondering over their choice of clothing rather than actually listening to the ceremony? That’s awful.
My nephew was a runner. A bunch of the family members ran a marathon in his memory, which I think was cool. To me, that was the appropriate way to salute him in his “natural habitat”, if you will. They also displayed all his running shoes at the funeral, which I guess is OK, too. I dunno, I guess I’m just an old broad…I wouldn’t consider going to a funeral in cut-offs.
