Europe's anti-Semitism crisis

Yes, I for one am completely swayed by Haberdash’s cogent, subtle analysis of the complex phenomenon of anti-Semitic violence in France: “Anti-Semitism BAD. Muslims BAD. Leftists BAD.”

I marvel at his clever use of debating tactics such as sweeping generalizations. snark, and disingeniousness:

(Fine. Claiming that all Muslims want to kill Jews is not racism. Just simple bigotry.)

Haberdash, this is Great Debates. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the word? A debate is an intellectual exercise in which one attacks or defends a proposition with facts, logic, and, yes, irony. If all you want to do is rant about teh Mohammedans, teh librulz, and anti-Semitic violence in France - and I see no attempts at anything more sophisticated in your posts in this thread - well, that’s what the Pit is for.

[quote=“Kobal2, post:219, topic:726130”]

Actually, in Europe islamic terrorism represents only 1% of terror incidents. nowhere in the cited link does it say that. In fact, the word “terrorist” is never mentioned in the link.

Except that’s simply not true - Jews share enough genes with Europeans that lactose intolerance is no more common with us than it is in Europe. In fact, according to this, Israelis eat more cheese than the British and drink more milk than the French.

Counterpoint.

[QUOTE]
Thirty to 50 million Americans (adults and children) are lactose intolerant. The disorder affects some populations more than others:
[ul]
[li] Seventy-five percent of all African-American, Jewish, Mexican-American, and Native American adults are lactose intolerant.[/li][li] Ninety percent of Asian-American adults are lactose intolerant.[/li][/QUOTE]

[/ul]
A more detailed (and more global) statistical spread here. Note that Europe itself is not spared, as it’s only the Northern regions where dairy farming has been practised since before the Romans that have really selected for that allele of that gene - around the Med. it’s still a coin-toss.
(That’s a lot of cite flinging over a throwaway joke :o)

How about the bit that I specifically copy/pasted ? Here, I’ll go again :

Need a couple more copies, or will that be all ?

Really? You are going to make the utterly false assertion that the Muslim immigrant populations have failed, (or, by your implication, refused), to assimilate? Why would you make such a nonsense claim? By every measure but one, they have assimilated: language, national loyalty, secularization, intermarriage, etc. The only area in which they have not assimilated has been in home ownership–and that has been due to being frozen out of the market. Next we will see you complaining that black people in the U.S. have refused to assimilate.

One study found that 73% of Muslim immigrants with voting rights had participated in national elections, only a bit lower than the 81% of the general population. Muslim women voted at the same rate as Muslim men. 50% of Muslims were involved in “mixed organizations rather than organizations based on their own ethnicity or religion.”
Muslims in Europe: A Report on 11 EU Cities (New York: Open Society Institute, 2009)
62% of French Muslims claim that democracy is doing well in France, as opposed to only 58% of the general population. In the same poll, Muslims gave a 95% overall favorable rating to France and French institutions.
Sylvain Brouard and Vincent Tiberj, Francais comme les autres? Enquete sur les citoyen d’origine maghrebine, africaine et turque (Presses de Sciences Po, 2005)
Following the headscarf bans in schools, a U.S. State Department survey found that “large majorities of Muslims in France voice confidence in the country’s government, feel at least partly French, and support integrating into French society.”
French Muslims Favor Integration into French Society (Washington, DC: Department of State, Office of Research, Opinion Analysis M-58-05, 2005).
A poll from 2005 found that around 80% of Muslims were “comfortable with people of different religions dating or marrying” while 59% would not object to their daughter marrying a non-Muslim. (This is born out in the fact that 25% of French Muslim women have married non-Muslim men.)
Jonathan Laurence and Justin Vaisse, Integrating Islam: Political and Religious Changes in Contemporary Fance (Brookings Institution Pres, 2006), 43.
60% of French Muslims claim to have French friends and 45% to have Jewish friends.
A separate survey found that French Muslims felt comfortable with other French people at a rate of 85%, but felt comfortable with other Muslims at a rate of only 71% or with others of their immigrant nations at a rate of 77%. When the survey was narrowed to Muslims who self-identified as being Muslim before being French, the 85% figure jumped to 90%. (Among the French general population, this feeling of closeness for French people was only 84%.)
Sylvain Brouard and Vincent Tiberj, Francais comme les autres? Enquete sur les citoyen d’origine maghrebine, africaine et turque (Presses de Sciences Po, 2005)
Jacob Vigdor created an “assimilation index” that was based, not on attitudes, but on participation. He measured male and female employment, home ownership, and naturalization. Canada and the U.S. demonstrated very high rates of “assimilation” on his scale with rates of 77% and 60%. Most European countries rated much lower–Spain was at 38%, for example. However, when he looked behind his numbers, he did not find that the Muslim immigrants were refusing to buy homes or become naturalized, but that their general poverty and national restrictions on ownership precluded home ownership and high barrier laws prevented naturalization.
Jacob L. Vigdor, Comparing Immigrant Assimilation in North America and Europe (New York: Center for State and Local Leadership, May 2011)

Not “poverty,” but a whole range of anti-immigrant social barriers and expressed prejudices directed at them.
As opposed to your highly cerebral assessment that comes out “ISLAM! ISLAM! ISLAM!”

The false claim that “They refuse to assimilate” is the sort of canard that xenophobes traditionally direct at every immigrant group. It is rarely true and if one looks at actual information rather than the claims of anti-immigrant alarmists, one discovers that the claim is a lie. You need better sources than the Muslim haters from whom you have been getting your misinformation.

Having seen how long it took the poor guy to explain on longhand things which the great-great-grandchild of his invention lets us express in a handful of pages, I am actually grateful to him.

And I say this as a natural geometer who would much rather talk in pictures than algebra.

Well, it’s true. To this day, statistics show that the majority of them still stubbornly refuse to become white, anglo-saxon protestants ; even when their families have spent over two hundred years on US soil !

Why should I assume concern about the Jews and qualify concern about Palestinians with an “if”?

I don’t want Jews to think Israel is their only safe haven. I don’t want Palestinians to be shooting targets in their own country, with little wherewithal to leave.

But if you’re bringing in “if,” well, why only for Palestinians?

As an aside, I’ve mentioned before, on several occasions, how much I dislike it when Jews call Israel a “safe haven”. We’re not your backup country, people!

It’s kind of too late for that. There have been reports about “shitty” behavior by settlers and by the Israeli political power structures for a while. I’ve been at least vaguely aware of it myself for, I want to say, close to twenty years, and the last few times there were military/suppressive actions taken against he Palestinian reservations, more even more shocking stuff came out.

If France looks like 1933, Israel looks like several years later.

I’m aware of the pernicious Muslim doctrine of “reversion” – that everyone is born a Muslim and to follow another religion is a willful act of defiance of Allah. I do not subscribe to this notion because I’m neither a Muslim nor an idiot.

“Jews can’t even walk down the street in France without being attacked by Muslims” is a fact.
“Synagogues, schools, and Jewish community institutions need round-the-clock military protection in France, from Muslims” is a fact.
“France is losing Jews at a rate that will make it a Jewish-free country by 2045” is a fact.
“The reason this is happening is because Jews have lost confidence in their ability to physically exist in France without being murdered by Muslims” is a fact.

You can debate what to do about this situation, but so far the thread has mostly consisted of Muslim apologists denying one or more of the above facts. At the end of the day what we have is a bunch of people trying to make the fact that Muslims are destroying the Jewish population of France “not count” while the destruction continues.

No, it’s utter bullshit.

Actually, this is not true. Most of this thread has been pointing out your errors of fact when you make broad brush generalizations about Muslims as though all the Muslims in France are involved in pogroms. As to “denying” your “facts,” there is a difference between denying facts and pointing out errors in assertions. Most of what you post has not been factual and the reasons you use to support your assertions are simply nonsense.

At the end of the day, we have a number of people looking to discover exactly what is happening which would provide a way to find a way to bring the troubles to an end rather than simply accepting the rants of people who are willing to distort facts to support their hatred of Islam.
As to your list of “facts”:

False. There are neighborhoods in France where this may happen, but your statement implies that every Jew in every neighborhood is in danger at all times.

Exaggeration. There are (too many) specific neighborhoods where this is true, but it is not universally true throughout France.

At last, something that resembles a fact. IF the emigration continues at the current rate, in 30 years France will no longer have a Jewish community. And while this may be true in metropolitan Paris and a couple of other cities, no evidence has been presented that it is occurring throughout France.

Speculation. One principle reason for emigration has been fear, but that is not the only motivation.

Yet it is mostly Israeli politicians and writers that I see promoting just this idea. The Jewish Agency for Israel is dedicated to the proposition.

Which has nothing to do with either your original silly claim that Islam is a choice or ibn Warraq’s observation that he was born into the Muslim community; he did not choose it.
No one is talking about “reversion,” so it is simply one more thing that you have introduced to the discussion for the purpose of insulting Islam. Typical of the rest of your rant.

Pretty big IF, innit ?
It assumes that a) the 2014 spike will project itself into 2015, b) those spike levels will remain constant for 30 years no matter what happens, c) none of the Jews who left for Israel will come back in the next 30 years no matter what happens… It also assumes that every last French Jew is just as likely (or financially able) to pick up sticks for Israel as the ones who already left.
So, all in all, calling this bald assertion “fact” is being awfully generous.

In other news, yesterday it was 24°C. Today it’s 25°C. At this rate by the end of the year the atmosphere will catch on fire :eek::eek::eek:

I have heard that claim before and it puzzles me. Are Jews really migrating from France to Israel for reasons of personal safety? I do not have the numbers (and I would appreciate any solid cite that other posters can provide) but it was always my impression that Jews in Israel are in greater danger of being murdered by Muslim extremists than Jews in France are. Is this untrue?

There’s something American posters must understand about France.

Over here, racism is primarily targeted at “Muslims”, “Arabs” (nevermind that they’re more likely to be Kabyls). They’re the ones who are invading us in drove. Who are stealing our jobs. Who come over here to use hospitals and schools paid for by our taxes. Who are reproducing like rabbits in order to live comfortably on welfare. And in order to outbreed us. Who are going to destroy our culture and civilization. Who refuse to adapt and keep wanting to wear veils in the streets, to sell halal meat in burger joints, and worse, to build mosques. They’re the impeding downfall of western civilization. They’re cheating to receive undeserved welfare benefefits instead of getting jobs. They’re lazy. They’re thieves. They’re criminals (look at how many of them are in jail). They have no respect for the rule of law. They’re violent. Their children are uneducated and unruly. And anyway why don’t they just go back to their country (nevermind the fact that their country is France, and often has been for a couple generations, since immigration from North-Africa has massively dropped)?

You might argue that “Muslims” isn’t the same as “Blacks” or “Latinos”. But so-called Islamophobia here is the same kind of beast as racism against these two populations in the USA, and the arguments used against “Arabs” are the same you read about Black or Latinos in the USA. It’s the same kind of people who have an issue with Blacks there and “Muslims” here. Don’t forget that “Muslims” “Arabs” are brown too. And attacks against Islam as a religion is more often than not a cover for people to be allowed to express their racism.

And this racism is widespread. With the progresses of the Front national, people are dropping the mask and stopped being shy about it. I hear antisemite comments…what?..Once or twice a year? I hear racist comments against Arabs all the fucking time. From coworkers. From family. From forwarded emails. From the taxi driver. From the guy having a drink next to me at the bar. Regardless how bloody some of the attacks against Jews have been in the recent years, the ordinary, common, everyday racism is targeting Muslims. They’re the one being “randomly” arrested by the police, being denied entrance in clubs, who don’t get called for job interviews, who don’t get the house rental.
So, yes, we French (at least the ones not voting Front national) have become quite sensitive about the issue and quite adept at detecting the bullshit which is used as cover for this racism. In the same way some Americans become suspicious when they read the word “thug”, for instance, which might raise an ear when we read some “innocent” comments. It’s not randomly that I ask people to replace “Muslims” by “Black” in their sentence. It’s because it will give them an idea of how their statements are going to be perceived over here.

Maybe you think that American people, not being familiar with these issues, should get the benefit of the doubt and be given a break. But how much of a break would my ignorance get me if I was asking here how the Black problem in the USA should be adressed, mentioning Black criminal tendancies, how lazy they are, how they prefer to live on the dole rather than getting a job, etc… Wouldn’t the mere fact that I bought so easily into these prejudices make people unwilling to give me the benefit of the doubt? In any case, when I see people here discussing the issue of muslims in Europe, I’m often left wondering where they get their informations from since most of time, the arguments they use or the issues they raise look like they’ve been lifted straight from the Front National platform. I can’t help but suspect that they filter these informations through a hefty dose of actual prejudices about Muslims and fear of Islam.

And finally, there are some people (follow my glance) whose statements are way too outrageous to simply be born out of ignorance. They’re blatantly motivated by their prejudice and outright hatred. So much so that, as I mentioned many times they would never been given a pass, but rather would get a pile on in the Pit if their accusations were targeting another group, when in this case, people barely raise an eyebrow and even try to excuse them ("obviously he meant “some”…yes, sure).