I think the problem is that, to some people, the fact that the Algerian Muslims didn’t succeed in killing all of the Algerian Jews over their various attempts qualifies as a paragon of tolerance. After all, it could have been worse! And the same logic is being applied to France today – sure, it looks a lot like 1938 for the Jews, but hey, it could be 1943, so what are you whining about, you racist?
No there is not ***intense ***hostility throughout the Maghreb. As I know you know not either the French or the arabic, so no it is I who know the reality and you who are making inventions. I live in fact live in a jewish neighborhood when I am back at home.
This is a francophone racist term for blacks. It is not a Maghrebine Jewish term for muslims.
I am sure as well, not that this has to do with Maghrebine religious attitudes - it does highlight the racism of the colonial period.
Keep to your persian topics, it is less tortured for history.
Uh, Algerian Muslims and Algerian Jews have a large amount of hostility, but I’m not aware of any time in which the Algerian Muslims tried to exterminate as opposed to expelling them along with the Algerian Christians.
You’re grossly exaggerating.
There were three notable pogroms.
When one of your own sources, whom you’ve insisted can be trusted points out that as soon as they had the opportunity to leave, Morocco, which had just about the largest Jewish community in the Middle East saw 90% of it’s population disappear within ten years and the situation became so dire, because they were so important for the Moroccan economy that the Moroccan Sultan had to institute a law banning them from leaving and furthermore when Jews were so terrified of mob activity that the Sultan ordered proclamation read aloud in all Mosques promising them they’d be protected, it’s silly to claim that there isn’t quite a bit of hostility between the communities.
Look, maybe I’m coming across as anti-Moroccan. I’m not any more than I am anti-Iranian or for that matter anti-Jewish.
I think it’s sad that Morocco’s Jewish community has gone for nearly 300,000 to at most 20,000(and even that is probably a huge stretch) just like I’m sad that there any many Christian parts of Israel/Palestine that will almost certainly turn into giant open air museums in the 20-30 years.
[QUOTE=Jackmannii]
In January, at a ceremony marking the 70th anniversary of the liberation of the Auschwitz death camp, the American businessman Ronald Lauder, who serves as the president of the World Jewish Congress, said acidly of Europe, “It looks more like 1933 than 2015.” He mentioned Jewish children afraid to wear a kippah on the streets of Paris, Budapest, and London; the sacking of Jewish stores; and attacks on synagogues; and he suggested that a slow-motion exodus from Europe was already under way.
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/…europe/386279/
[/QUOTE]
With all due respect, I think that’d be an example of what Rune was talking about : outsiders making noise. I’m sure he has his stats, but with all due respect what the hell does Ronald Lauder, American businessman, knows about the pulse of the streets of Paris, London or Malmo ? As for the 1933 comment, for fuck’s sake. Either he has no idea what it was like in 1933, or he’s got no sense of proportion whatsoever and is just flinging incendiary comments for the hell of it. I’ve got no use for either.
When antisemitism is mainstream, when even the more moderate and respectable newspapers talk about “the Jewish vermin” or their being a national problem of some sort ; when in short antisemitism is not a minority problem but the general zeitgeist, then he can talk of the nineteen fucking thirties. That’s not even close to the case - in fact, these days I’d say that’s more true for Muslims (in France, anyway). Anecdotically, on my way to uni I walk past a rather large bookshop every day, and throughout the year the window display has been 90% filled with books about the “Muslim threat”, “Muslim infiltration”, “those Muslims that are eroding France” and the like. And it’s not like it’s a Frontist bookshop, or a particularly right wing neighbourhood (my uni is smack in the middle of Little Asia). Those are simply the books that were hot off the presses.
That’s more like it, although I’d like to be able to compare and contrast with the general crime/assault figures in the UK - those naturally tend to rise when the economy drops and vice versa.
[QUOTE=Ramira]
did you not participate in the Pit-blogging early this year by this same person?
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I know. What can I say, I’m a naive young man 
Ah, the problem is “outsiders.” France will dispose of its Jews as it sees fit and it’s no one else’s place to interfere.
What the hell do you call it when a synagogue has to barricade the doors with furniture as a mob calls for “death to the Jews” outside? When Jews are told not to walk down the street in distinctive clothing because it’s infeasible to respond to all the beatings that will ensue? When a pack of Muslims rampages through a Jewish quarter smashing every window they can find? It looks a LOT like Germany in the mid-30s.
This is what goes on in mosques and the Muslim press, but you just declare that it doesn’t count for some reason. A Nazi salute is the popular gesture among Muslim youths across France.
Your constant insistence that murders of Jews don’t matter and aren’t happening and musn’t be talked about is a perfect example of “anti-Semitism beng in the general zeitgiest.”
The poor, poor Muslims. They might skin their knuckles punching a Jewish child in the face. Jawbones are Islamophobic.
Shush, you. Go play with your Nintendo or something, the grown-ups are talking.
Kobal, as usual I agree with just about everything you said and find this thread fairly detestable and disagree with Lauder’s comments, but I’d strongly object to the idea that it is “a minority problem”.
When 50% of all French adults believe that French Jews are more loyal to Israel than France(which is classic anti-semitism) then it can hardly be seen as just “a minority problem”.
Granted, there are degrees of bigotry. People can believe most Jews are disloyal without supporting the burning of Synagogues for example.
And certainly anti-Semitism is clearly not remotely comparable to anti-Semitism in 1933 or even anti-Muslim bigotry in Europe.
Considering that Jews are 40 times as likely as Muslims to be the victims of racist violence in France, you’re right, it’s not remotely comparable.
It’s not alarmist bullshit. There is a serious problem in France and Europe. The term “French Muslim” is something of an oxymoron. There is little if any cultural absorption of a significant portion of immigrating Muslims into France. It’s enough of a problem to cause open hostility and riots.
“Western” countries routinely make fun of Christianity and other religions with little response to it. It’s practically an art form unto itself. The pathetically innocent Charlie magazine publication defines the situation and the religion. Islam is still carrying the same baggage from a 1000 years ago and no amount of political correctness can whitewash the crazy out of it.
We’re not seeing antisemitism, we’re seeing the fallout of the Islamic religion. Pick whatever ratio you want, 80/20, 50/50… it doesn’t matter. Whatever number you choose it represents a significant number of violent people within a demographic group of this size. ISIS is one of hundreds if not thousands of radical groups based around the religion.
Nice try.
Suggesting that anti-Semitism in France is worse than anti-Muslim bigotry in France is like saying its better in America to be black than to be white.
I find the denial of anti-Semitism in France to closely parallel the denial of a racial problem in America, actually. “It doesn’t count because it was in Paris” is the same as “it doesn’t count because he had marijuana in his system.” “It doesn’t count because people implicated didn’t immediately admit they hate Jews” is the same as “well the cop said he was reaching for a gun so we have to believe him.” “You can’t talk about the anti-Semitism problem because that’s racist against the people doing the Jew-bashing” is the same as “don’t cop lives matter?” And the end result is that we have a pile of dead Jews there and dead blacks here and a bunch of people invested in finding reasons why they don’t “count,” as if that will make the pile go away.
There are 4 incidents of anti-Jewish violence in France for every 1 incident of anti-Muslim violence, even though there are 10 times as many Muslims as Jews. Hence the 40x figure. The idea that Jews (or even whites) would run through a Muslim neighborhood in France smashing and bashing every window and person they encounter is ludicrous. But when a pack of Muslims did this to a Jewish neigborhood last summer, besieged a synagogue, blew up several more, kidnapped and tortured a few random Jews, killed and beat Jews on the street at random – well, the only reason you are able to pretend it’s not a crisis of 1930s proportions is because it’s already so common that it’s not news. Your reaction to this is that it’s “better” to be a Jew – perhaps it’s better to belong to a group that is trying to be a productive part of society, but we’re talking about violence and bigotry here, and there’s just no comparison on that scale. The worst Muslims face is someone drawing a satirical cartoon, and they go and shoot 9 people over that and everyone kowtows. This is “worse” than daily physical assaults only in the narcissistic mind of Muslims who never forget an insult but think they can do whatever they want to others.
Ramira, I know English isn’t your first language so there’ll be no warning here. But do note that it’s against the rules of Great Debates to say that another poster is lying and ‘making inventions’ is pretty close - if not outright - saying that.
So let’s avoid it in the future.
Kobal2, it’s not your place to dismiss other posters or to tell them they can’t participate.
No warning, but do it again anywhere in Great Debates or Elections and you’ll get one.
Uh-huh. Just like those Northern agitators were stirring up trouble in the South in the 1950s and '60s, when all good Southerners knew that Negroes and whites were getting on just fine and reports of racist violence were the work of outside rabble-rousers.
That “fuller picture” has been repeated down through history - outbreaks of violent anti-Semitism have commonly occurred during hard times, from economic downturns to outbreaks of plague, when people needed scapegoats and unscrupulous “leaders” were willing to provide them.
It’s when these stressors arise that we have to be especially vigilant to make sure that minority rights are protected (this phenomenon affects other groups besides Jews), not minimize injustice while assuming that things will be dandy once conditions improve.
One thing I’ve noticed: the folks claiming there is a huge problem with antisemitism in Europe are often the same people trying to deny there is any problem with anti-black racism in the U.S.
Try reading four posts back.
I was making a different point, namely that American conservatives seem to care a lot about antisemitic incidents in Europe but very, very little about anti-black ones in the U.S.
You happen to be an exception, congratulations.
The fact that you consider objecting to Jew-bashing a sign of being “conservative” says a lot about the leftist position on the issue.