Euros, Dinosaurs and the Bible.

[Sdrawkcab]

The Bible is a collection of books. It is not alive. It is not divine. It does not have a will or the ability to think. Therefore the Bible does not have a viewpoint. The viewpoint comes from the person reading and interpreting what the flat text of the Bible means.

[Meatros]

*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond *
Are you here because SD is your mission in life, or something? My dear, this is just a message board, not life. I would hope you are here because it is available and something to do, and not because there is nothing on the outside world for you. Go outside, take a walk, go have coffee with a friend. There is more to life than a computer and a message board.

Now that was uncalled for…Just a messageboard indeed.

*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond *
What I am so convinced about is that the Bible isn’t that hard to understand, (even for a not so enlightened person like me) and that the only viewpoint that is valid is that of the Bibles. The Bible is not deceiving or unclear. It is not a guessing game or a fill in the blank (where you can get all your answers on google) only the people that try to make the meaning into something other than what the Bible says are the deceivers.
The Bible is the word of God, I can’t be wrong.
**

If it’s so easy to understand and their couldn’t be any other interpretation other than your own, why are their any? It’s not overwhelmingly clear as you seem to suggest. That’s half the problem IMHO. I could list some “problems” (I don’t want to call them contradictions per se), if you would like to see how “hard it is to understand”.

[Siege]

Jersey Diamond, my scepticism about rapture theology is based on the Bible. Specifically, it’s based on the words of Christ which I quoted on page 1 of this thread and which I’ll quote again, using the same passage from the King James Version (I’m too lazy to retype it):

Matthew 24:42-44
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Also, you’re partially right. I have no more idea of heaven than any other mortal does. The idea of basking in the Presence of God, of being free from want, from fear, from pain, and of being surrounded by the perfect Light, Warmth and Love, not to mention having the answers to all the questions which have plagued me over the years, for that matter, every question which I’ve ever asked is tremendously appealing. I’ll also be brutally honest. As I think I mentioned, I’m being treated for clinical depression and I have a history of suicide attempts. I long for death enough as it is. I trust God to bring me home at the appropriate time, when my work here is through. I don’t think I’m supposed to quit permaturely, despite the latest news of layoffs on the television or my own rather bleak looking employment prospects. If I focus too much on the joys of heaven and the trials of this life, I may die. Also, there are those who believe that suicided go to hell. If that’s the case, then focussing on the joys of heaven could cost me those very things. I’ll stick it out here and make the best of things for now. I’ll also look forward to finding out which of us was right, but only at the end of all things, whatever that is, and at the appropriate time. Until then, why don’t you and I agree to disagree?

CJ

[Kimstu]

Thanks cj, please don’t go anywhere soon though, we need you around here!

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

*Originally posted by Wearia *
Is there any mention of …the Euro in the Bible? Can you cite quotes or passages?

Revelations 13:17
so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

Had Europe adopted the German currency, the suggestion that the mark represents a future European exchange mechanism might hold more water.

There are many Christians that hold end times prophecy to have not been fufilled yet, and thus come up with interpretations such as your friend reports.

Following the directions that this thread has taken, I wish to present some biblical evidence that would seem to indicate that rapture and end times have already taken place. Lets start with

• Matthew 24:30-34*
  30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
  32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[1] is near, right at the door. 34**I tell you the truth, this generation[2] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. **

How long is a biblical generation? perhaps 40 years?

• Numbers 32:13*
  “So the Lord’s anger burned against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until the entire generation of those who had done evil in the sight of the Lord was destroyed.”

At this point, considering Jesus is widely accepted to be approximately 33 years old at the time, the rapture should take place before the year 73 CE. The destruction of Jerusalem, the harlot, (Isaiah 1:21) took place in 70 CE

Another indication that I get for an early rapture regards God’s instructions concerning seals on prophecy. For example

• Daniel 12:4-9 *

4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."

5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”
7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. [1] When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”
8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”
9 He replied,** "Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end.**

Daniels prophecy was written around 535 BCE and he was instructed to seal up his scroll, because the end time has not arrived.But to John, God says

• Revelations 22: 10*
  Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.

Doesn’t appear to me that 2000 years represents “near” if 600 years doesn’t.

I’m just presenting this view called Preterism because its new and it fascinates me.

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

Preterism is new to me I mean

[Siege]

Just to reassure Kimtsu, and anyone else who may have been a bit worried by that last post, I am doing fine right now, and I have no intention of ducking out earlier than I have to. Besides, as far as I can make out, I’m just too plain stubborn to die! It would prove too many of my enemies right!

CJ

[asterion]

posted by greenspace

quote:Revelations 13:17
so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

Had Europe adopted the German currency, the suggestion that the mark represents a future European exchange mechanism might hold more water.

Man, why didn’t I come up with that first?

[Duck_Duck_Goose]

Also, FWIW, none of the mainstream Protestant denominations that I’m familiar with consider that suicides go straight to Hell and are damned forever.

And, as a matter of fact, while Googling around on this, I found a couple of persuasive arguments that they don’t.

http://www.road2healing.com/god.html

“How do you know your son is in heaven? I was told suicides to go to hell?” Well, unfortunately we are told a lot of things that I have never been able to back up when I study the Bible for myself.

In the book of Judges it tells the story of Samson…Samson says, “Let me die with the Philistines!” and he pushes the pillars out, the Temple falls and they all die. Samson died by suicide! But if you look in the 11th chapter of Hebrews you will find him listed with the heroes of faith.

http://www.twotoomany.com/pages/where.html

Where do suicides go?

Everyone has an opinion. Here’s a challenge - try to remember how you first came to your conclusion of the fate of the soul of someone who committed suicide. Was it a relative who taught you what to think? Church or school? A movie or a book? This topic is one whose biases extend 1,500 years into the past, causing centuries of pain and shame for unwitting families.

In his book, “The Enigma of Suicide,” George Howe Colt’s brilliant research reveals two very important facts: the Bible never condemns the act of suicide, and the idea that suicide is a mortal sin can be traced to the writings of Augustine in the early fifth century. Prior to Augustine’s writings, suicide was a Christian martyr’s direct route to heaven, and family members were showered with gifts and food. Martyrdom was how people demonstrated the depth of their faith.

Here’s a version of the “suicides are all going to Hell!” viewpoint that I personally find quite nauseatingly judgemental.

Here’s their rationale.
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/suicide-es.htm

God personally stated that those listed will go the lake of fire, not Heaven, even if they once had a moment of true faith! He said this:

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the MURDERERS, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the FIERY LAKE OF BURNING SULFUR. This is the second death (Rev. 21:8).

And remember this: “suicide” is just another name for self-murder, but it is still murder! That makes suicides, murderers, who are incapable of repenting of their premeditated murder.
The Apostle John taught:

… and ye know that no MURDERER hath eternal life abiding in him (1 Jn. 3:15).

http://misslink.org/chapel/askaminister/practical/suicide3.html

Some may ask, "What about Samson? Didn’t Samson commit suicide, and yet he is mentioned in Hebrews as having died in faith? Samson, however, left his life entirely in the hands of God. Those who commit suicide, intentionally take their own lives regardless of what God’s will may be.

In Judges 16:28 we find Samson praying that God would remember him (turning back to God), and ultimately dying while carrying out the will of God in turning judgment upon the heads of the enemies of the Lord. God’s call on his life was for the deliverance of God’s people from the Philistines, and in Judges 16:28 we find that he slew more Philistines in the incident of his death than he had slain in his entire life.

God honored his prayer and allowed his death at the same time, but Samson put no sword into his own chest, nor did he slit his own throat.

No, he just pushed over a couple of stone pillars, knowing full well that this was what was holding up the whole roof of the temple to Dagon, which was made of heavy clay tiles placed in layers over heavy wood rafters (that’s what roofs in Bible times were made out of), and that he would certainly die, so this reasoning is specious.

It sounds to me like he’s just praying for strength to push the pillars over, and I don’t see any implication that he’s “leaving his life in the hands of God.” He quite clearly knows he’s going to die, and I don’t see any mention of “not my will but Thine”.

The actual passage:

Then Samson prayed to the LORD , “O Sovereign LORD , remember me. O God, please strengthen me just once more, and let me with one blow get revenge on the Philistines for my two eyes.” Then Samson reached toward the two central pillars on which the temple stood. Bracing himself against them, his right hand on the one and his left hand on the other, Samson said, “Let me die with the Philistines!”

It’s also specious to say, “By killing himself, he actually fulfilled his destiny, which was to kill Philistines.” When God really needs an instrument for killing large numbers of people, he has things like plague and famine. God doesn’t create a person to have a destiny solely to kill people.

As a matter of fact, I don’t see any implication in the entire story that it was Samson’s destiny to deliver his people from the Philistines. It only says this:

A certain man of Zorah, named Manoah, from the clan of the Danites, had a wife who was sterile and remained childless. The angel of the LORD appeared to her and said, “You are sterile and childless, but you are going to conceive and have a son. Now see to it that you drink no wine or other fermented drink and that you do not eat anything unclean, because you will conceive and give birth to a son. No razor may be used on his head, because the boy is to be a Nazirite, set apart to God from birth, and he will begin the deliverance of Israel from the hands of the Philistines.”

He’s to “begin” the deliverance, not accomplish it. So pulling the temple down and killing more Philistines isn’t the culmination, or validation, of his career. It’s just another blow, and moreover, one that’s struck for a purely personal reason–“let me with one blow get revenge on the Philistines for my two eyes”. Nothing in there about “Death to the evil oppressors of my people!”

If God’s call on Samson’s life really was to deliver his people from the Philistines, something must have gone wrong, because after Samson dies, the Philistines are still very much there. After the time of the Judges is over, and the Israelites demand a king, and God gives them Saul, who is he fighting? Philistines.

Here’s the Samson passage from Hebrews 11:

And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies.

This man who quite clearly killed himself for no other reason than to get revenge on the Philistines who blinded him is listed right there with David, Samuel, and the prophets.

This theory, that suicides automatically go to hell, holds water only if you accept the premise that suicide is “another form of murder”, which I don’t, and which all other rational people out there don’t.

By definition, people who kill themselves are “not in their right mind”, and persons who are “not in their right mind” are not capable of “murder”. This is why our legal system has provisions for “not guilty by reason of insanity”. Therefore suicide is not the same thing as murder.

I mean, geez, logic is not normally my strong suit, but even I can see this. :rolleyes:

[FriarTed]

while Saul is certainly not listed among the heroes of faith in later Hebrew or Christian Scriptures- the account of his death at his own hand & David’s mourning of him nowhere suggest that Saul is or will suffer forever because of it (nor does there seem to be much hope of him being raised to life in God either but that’s another issue)

[vanilla]

JerseyDiamond said Those who take the Bible only partially have thewir vision clouded.
I see.
So JerseyDiamond keeps kosher, I hadn’t known that.

Good riddance.