even sven, please give the poverty schtick a rest

The BBQ Pit
241

You guys, I’m set to have made less than $5,400 this year. Even with the $5,000 difference between my loans and my savings that makes me have a net of $10,400 this year. The national poverty line for an individual is $9,573. The deparment of labor’s minimum self-suffciency level for the greater Bay Area is $12,400 (Sacramento’s is about a thousand bucks less). I’m trying my best to live on my income and not piss away the only thing I can ever expect to fall in my lap, and I get called “the privledged poor”.

You want to know about my TV? I got a $30.00 one from a thrift store, and it EXPLODED. You want to know about my cat? I don’t know because I had to give him away because I could no longer afford an apartment and went to sleep on someone I barely knew’s couch. You want to know about my wardrobe? I used to shop at thrift stores, then I started going on 50% off days at the thrift store. Now I just wear the same pair of pants and rotate my three nice sweaters to work and hope my bosses don’t notice the stains. I’ll even tell you about my vaction- I stayed in $1.50 a night hotel rooms- all with cockroaches, some without running water or electricity. I took twenty cent long-distance bus rides crammed cheek-to-cheek with Indians and the produce/goods/livestock they were taking to the market all over the nation. I ate at every forty-cent dhaba (truck stop restraunt), in a land where health and safety regulations are pretty much unknown. And I had the best time of my life.

What do you guys want from me, blood? Don’t think I havn’t tried to sell it!

Nothing I do on ten thousand bucks (much less the six thousand that I actually live on) a year makes me anything but broke off my ass. Is it my fault? yes and no. I don’t think it’s my fault I was unemployed for six months, which really fucked things up for me. I applied to everything in town- from Taco Bell to law firms. I replied to every want ad I was vaguely qualified for. I posted my resume on Craig’s List for months straight. Nothing I did got me hired. I could have moved, but a moving is a big risk. I could easily have ended up uneployed for another six months and out the moving costs (which can get pretty high when you don’t drive). I did choose to go to India. If I hadn’t, I’d be a couple thousand dollars richer- still not enough to make it up to the Department of Labor’s standard and frankly if I give up oppertunities like that it’s not even worth trying to get by in life.

The Straight Dope is a conflicted place for me. I look back at some of the generocity I experienced here when I was going through my seriously unemployed and depressed period and think that there are some hidden angels here. I enjoy coming here for news, debate, and to give me things to think about and a chance to formulate opinions. But at other times I look at how people who are largly in comfortable positions decend upon those who are experiencing things like depression, poverty, disiilusionment or other strife and basically tear them to pieces. There is very little room here for people that threaten the worldview of the whole- which is often an I-got-mine attitude. I’m thinking people like AHunter3, who is finding his own path through mental illness, or Vanilla, who has shared her trials with life and religion with good faith. I think the Dope on a whole would be better off acknowledging that the path that lead to their current life isn’t the only way through life and a middle-class existance isn’t the goal for everyone. Some of us have to work these things out for ourselves and some of our paths will never be easy.

As for my life, I’m still sticking to the plan of making a short, getting it in a festival and figuring out a career from there. I’m still considering graduate school, with journalism as the most likely path, but I’m still not sure about that. I’ve gotten a crash course in the real world these last few years. I never expected to struggle with putting food on my plate. I never thought I’d be working the same jobs I worked in high school for pocket change at the age of twenty four. I’ve had to deal with the fact that most my friends have huge cash reserves, good job connections or steady help from their parents- I’m the only one I’m close to that is struggling like this. I’m hoping the move in February signals the end of this era, but there is always the chance that I won’t find work and things will get worse. The depression hit me hard, and I don’t think I’ve regained all of my old can-do attitude and inspiration. But I’ve got a better understanding of the world and I feel much much older than I was when I stepped off of the graduation stage. I’ve got some doubts that I still have it in me. My world was shattered, and now that I’ve put it back together it feels a lot more fragile and unsure.

But I have faith in who I am and hope that I’m still the same girl that dazzled the world just a few years ago. I have faith that somehow I will be able to embrace my art again, I will find a purpose to life besides substinence and that all these lessons I’m learning will somehow add to that. My life diverged suddenly and wildly from the path it was on, and now it’s time to figure out how to really get where I want to be.

242

YOU WENT TO INDIA! FOR THREE MONTHS!

You are listing your annual income when you voluntarily absented yourself from the workforce for a quarter of the year.

243

Jesus Christ! YOU HAVE TWENTY THOUSAND FUCKING DOLLARS!

244

Same old recording, playing over and over: “I had a three month vacation overseas and I have twenty large in savings, so I’m dirt poor, undernourished, poorly clothed, and have it hard compared to my friends.”

sven, either get over it or get used to it, for either you are going to have to change your tune, or you will not get anywhere.

245

I’m not really weighing in on this whole thing one way or the other, as I’m not particularly ‘tired of the schtick’ as the OP is, but I did want to say two things:

TVeblen’s post (subsequent tiff nonwithstanding) is one of the better posts in this thread. Very well said, and worth reading.

Second, do people really have to pull the, “why, you should be greatful being poor in such a wealthy nation!” bit? I know that this is all relative, but it doesn’t mean any person living at a greater ‘quality of life index’ (or whatever it might be) than a the poorest of poor in the entire world needs to suck it up and thank the founding fathers for creating such a great place in which to be financially sub-standard. Really, give it a rest. Won’t somebody think of the children! :rolleyes:

246

What I think that you’re failing to notice, sven, is that many of us who are now living middle class to wealthy lives did struggle in the past. I won’t bore you with my life story but I do know what it’s like to not have money for food and to work crappy jobs for minimum wage. I don’t have chemical depression though but I do understand that that’s very, very tough. That said, many of us with comfortable lifestyles didn’t get there by magic and weren’t born that way. We remember how it used to be but we also know the hard work and good choices that we made to get to where we are. You would do well to consider our advice.

Haj

247

When I went to university in cold Canada to study English, classics and cinema, I lived in a shell of a building, with most of the doors, windows, walls and floorboards knocked out, without heat, water, or electricity, and with one hell of a violent vagrant problem. A pit in the basement was our toilet. (But that’s nothing compared to some of the university students I taught in northern Ontario, who lived in tents year round.)

Then things got tougher, for I had to transfer to another university so that I could both financially and physically take care of my ailing parents, one of whom died during my second degree, and one of whom went insane during my second degree and died shortly prior to my third degree.

sven, you do not know what it is like to be poor, for you are not poor – you are just miserly. You have no idea of what it is like to have financial responsibilities for others whose lives depend on you, or to truly have no money. So enough of the self-pity, huh? A lot of people in this thread have tried to assist you, and yet you consider their attempts to be no more than descending to tear you to pieces. You obviously don’t get the message.

248

What’s the title of this, sounds interesting.

249

You could use that money to double your income, and it would last you four years. You should use it to eat at least - you can’t do your best work, or think your best when you are improperly nourished. You seem to believe that this is the only money you will ever have. That’s not so. Use this money as a tool, invest it in yourself, and put yourself in a position where your education is making you an income. Then, $20,000 will not seem like so much money. You’ll be in a position where you can save that much again in a matter of a couple/three years.

You don’t have a healthy attitude towards that money, and if you don’t develop one, my earlier prediction will certainly come true.

250

You have a net income of $10,400 this year. You can live fairly comfortably, if a bit thriftily, on a net income of say, $17,000 per year. (I’m pulling this figure out of my ass, yes.) That requires dipping into about $6500-$7000 in savings per year. Hopefully in a year or quite possibly less, you’ll have a job where you make a net income of $17,000 per year or more.

And, ummm, $20,000 is a large reserve of money.

Oh, by the way, at 24, not all of us have large cash reserves, superb job connections, and parents who pay our way.

251

You’re certainly more privledged than any of the poor people who never had $20,000 fall into their laps.

You seem to have made the mistake of thinking that your inheritence is somehow “special money” because you didn’t have to work to earn it. So you can’t spend it, because where else are you ever going to get that much money for nothing? This is a nonsense way of looking at your financial situation. $20,000 is $20,000. If you earned $20,000 at your current job, would you stick it all in the bank and refuse to touch it? I’m all for saving money, but saving beyond your means isn’t any more reasonable than spending beyond your means.

252

I don’t think (although I could have missed it) that anyone really cares which path you take- that’s entirely up to you. But everyone makes choices in life- and one I suspect many of us have made is the choice between our dreams and security. And most of us have to give up one to get the other. I don’t know anyone who has everything they want. They’ve either given up free time to make money, or money to have time, or their dreams of playing professional hockey to go to college and have the security of a regular job, or they continue to live with their parents through college and/or grad school because they can’t afford to both move out and go to school. They had children early, making it difficult to save for a house, or they bought a house and delayed having children longer than they would have liked. The choice is up to you- but having made that choice (or choices) complaints about the foreseeable consequences makes it appear that you believe you are entitled to “have it all”- to live where you want to live, in the living arrangement you prefer, to get a degree in your dream field rather than a more marketable one, to get higher paying jobs than the ones you had while in school even though you don’t seem to have any particular skills, to keep the $20,000 to make your movie. Nobody gets it all. If you feel the choices you’ve made are worth the consequences, then accept them without complaint. If you feel they aren’t worth the consequences, then change some of them. If you choose to do neither, accept that most people, not “having it all” themselves, are not going to be terribly sympathetic.

253

I think this sums up in a nutshell is why some people have gotten irritated with your posts. The way you talk about your situation sometimes gives the impression that you think your situation is uniquely difficult, uniquely hard, and that none of the other posters here could possibly understand what you’re going through, not really. And it’s true that some of us can’t – some of us have never been as poor as you are, or dealt with some of the shit you’ve had to deal with. But some members (including some in this thread) have been as poor or poorer, perhaps for less satisfying reasons than pursuing a personal dream, perhaps with fewer positive events like a windfall inheritance or a long trip. Many more of us have close friends or family who have been or are currently worse off.

I’m not saying this to tell you your situation isn’t actually so bad, I’m saying this to try to explain why the tone that of some of your posts generates such a negative reaction. It’s not because we all think your life is actually great, or that the only path to happiness is the middle class life in suburbia. There’s a reason most people tend to not talk about money. For every person you find who thinks “damn, your life sucks!” there’s another thinking about what you have that they don’t.

Honestly, I think if you had responded to the OP with something like the following, this thread would have died on the table:

“You’re right, I do have some luxuries and opportunities that other people don’t have. However, I’ve also had some unexpected difficulties. And even if my situation was entirely due to my own choices, that doesn’t change the fact that I’m still struggling and living without quite a bit that most people take for granted. It’s tough, and that’s what I’ve been trying to vent about. I’ll try to keep it in threads where it’s relevant from now on, feel free not to read them.”

It’s your insistence on explaining why each of your choices doesn’t change the fundamental and unique hardship of your situation that keeps fanning the flames, in my opinion.

254

It seems to be the goal for you, though. It is middle-class to go to college. It is middle-class (and arguably, upper middle class) to study a field that is, in a lot of ways, esoteric and not practical. It is middle-class to kick it in India for three months. It is middle-class to go to graduate school.

And guess what? There is nothing wrong with wanting to be middle class. A middle class existance is not something that has to be villified. You want to be comfortable. You want to be able to eat while having the luxury of living where you want to. I think this is what most people would like, even sven.

I don’t think most Dopers have the attitude you’re talking about. A few do, but the majority of the posters on this thread have not displayed that. What they have displayed is disdain for self-pity and a certain naivete. First off, you talk about your inheritance like all of us are walking around with giant checks in their pockets. $20,000 is a windfall for most people, middle-class or otherwise. View it as such and be thankful.

It is not your fault you were unemployed for six months. I remember when you posted about the trials and trebilations of job-hunting, and I was rooting for you all the way. I was sympathetic when that crazy employer kept giving you hell, and I didn’t blame you for quitting. And then I was thrilled for you when you got some jobs, even if they weren’t exactly glamorous. I thought surely happiness would come your way. I’m sorry that it hasn’t.

You’re paying dues, even sven. Some people pay dues in fancy places. Most people do not. My father, with college degree and intelligence, had to work part-time at McDonalds and at Sears (selling carpet) to put food on our table. He got fired from the former because he couldn’t stop eating the french fries. My mother, who has a degree in sociology, did a stint at a 7-Eleven (something I didn’t know about until recently). For a few months when I was in elementary school, she delivered pizza at Dominoes (I still remember her bright red paper uniform). I’m sure they were embarrassed and worried that things wouldn’t get better, but they kept at it. And now they live the epitome of a middle class lifestyle, debt and all.

You have to keep your head about you and keep plodding away.

255

It won the People’s Choice Award at the 2001 Waterwalker Film Festival.

http://www.paddlingcanada.com/waterwalker/winners/winners_2001.php

http://www.islandnet.com/mm/fest02/perkins1.htm

256

Nice that you had a vacation rather than keep trying to find better employment Cockroaches? Big whoop. How about I tell you about how we lived during university, without water, electricity, heat, etc.:

257

I can relate to you, Sven. I have clinical depression, I’ve never made much over $20,000 in my life. Part of that is because I chose to spend three years wandering in Asia, and then three years getting as semi-useless MA instead of “building a career.” Now nearly all my freinds are better off than I financially, and I resent being broke all the time.

I don’t however, blame anyone but me for my situation. And I sure as heck wouldn’t have failed to use a $20,000 windfall to turn my life around.

You have no fucking excuse.

258

Did you guys miss the part where I owe the government FIFTEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS? Yeah, I’m lucky to be coming out of college without debt, but I’m not rolling the dough here. I have a choice between paying it all off now, or making the $200 a month payments and hoping to reap more money off investing it. Yeah, I’m lucky to be able to plan my debt like this (although if my family hadn’t assured me that they would pay off my loans after college- a promise they reneged- I would have never taken them all out), but fifteen thousand dollars is a helluva a lot of money to owe, especially for something whoes only tangible effect so far has been to render me “overqualified” for more than a few jobs I applied to.

Anyway, I’m done here. I’m digging my own hole trying to defend my choices, and I’ve got my own real life battles to fight.

259

So stop defending yourself. No one says you have to justify yourself here. That you choose to do so simply opens yourself up for more scrutiny and further criticism.

Robin

260

I guess that college education wasn’t all it was cracked up to be, huh? A semester of home ec would have served you well. Use that college education for something besides filmmaking! Use your head! This is basic math we’re talking about.

You could pay off half your government debt, renegotiate your monthly payment, and have some money to LIVE off of. Have you figured out how much interest you’re paying on that government debt by stretching it out over a gazillion years?

Is that tax debt or did you borrow money from the government? They are the most unforgiving of any debtor you’ll ever have. Get it paid off now!

What do your real-life friends think of this? Are they advising you to continue on with the path you’ve chosen (i.e., poverty and self-pity)? Or do those of them with practical life experience tell you that you are 100% wrong in doing what you’re doing? Some people don’t like being told they’re wrong, but I’m telling you anyway. **Your. Plan. Isn’t. Working. ** You have made the wrong choice. You need to re-group. Wake up!